812 VS Rumors

From Ferrari's standpoint, they did exactly what they should of, given the circumstances, (a) they had customer orders, (b) the world is dramatically changing and they may not be able to continue sales of the V12 into UK or EU in the future, so, I would be thankful that Ferrari provided as many of these sweet cars as possible before it is all over.

 

Hi again,
I am not sure though if the 812 base model was intended to be "a model of exclusivity" vs a typical production car. When you use that term it makes it sound like it is a rare or versione speciale type vehicle. That it is not. Any Ferrari is "exclusive" if that is defined as a rare car to own by most people's standards. Are they really going for N-1 strategies to produce a relative shortage on all model lines at this point in their organization?

 

I guess what I mean is that exclusivity is a principle/strategy F has been advocating for as far as I can remember even since it went public. What I’m trying to say is that it doesn’t feel like that strategy has been followed at least in some markets. Now true they did what they had to do they had orders I actually believe they had so many orders also cause they did a great job in terms of initial marketing ( last na v12, production sold out for 5 years) at a time where buyers were used to the old days in terms of supply / scarcity and price stability. Even excluding I would struggle to see how they would manage to get so many orders on the replacement car. Look at the GTS which was meant to be much rarer demand wasn’t really there that speaks for itself. What i mean is that they need to find that right balance between supply and demand at the end of the day this is human nature people want what they cant have if you know there is an oversupply and no one wants to buy the car it will impact future demand for that model and other production models and won’t be beneficial to the company as far as revenue are concerned even if that’s the only concern. So perhaps trying to stick closer to the N-1 approach wouldn’t do a bad thing.. at least no need to be well above N as it doesn’t benefit anyone in the long run

 

Ferrari is different now, they are going towards a 'Porsche' model (higher production year over year), albeit at a much higher price, Ferrari must please the stock market, no long term thinking allowed.

This will derail the company in the near future, hopefully they go private and return to a sustainable long term philosophy.

 

You're right about that.
Having said that, I would be good with whatever mathematical formula (N, N-1, N+1, N+10 etc) as long as all of us enthusiasts can get a car we want.

 

I would be happy to sacrifice a bit of power and technology if we could go back to a private company that makes those visceral cars with soul and mystique.. which has been lost. Surely they are making great cars but it’s now an all different experience

 

Plus 812 volumes slammed into the market in less than 2 years unlike the 4 years for the F12. Ferrari in the UK totally destroyed any value of the 812 with numerous new registered delivery miles cars available at 20 to 25 % discount , telling how they destroyed any notion that a Ferrari is an exclusive low depreciating brand. People in the UK talk about McLaren and Aston losing huge money as a joke, Ferrari is just the same. You would have been better (if you wanted a V12 and to try and retain some sensible depreciation) buying an Aventador. 812, PF, Lusso all huge losses from new and in year 1. Pista has had a slight resurgence post full lockdown (quite a number sold and some better than pre covid prices) but it is likely to be a brief respite. Brave pill for anyone spending big money on an SF90 as a standard car and Roma is seemingly a tough sell. So , would they really number a 812 VS ? To protect who exactly ? This type of product is soon to be usurped by new technology, they will surely sell as many as they can. That is the strategy. The numbered special 812 was the Monza ?

 

Not to mention the f12 prices which have been destroyed as a result.

 

I was told today that this car will come - probably obvious to all here but you never know, F12 could have been the exception not the new norm.

So many well informed and connected folks on here and maybe 3/9 months from launch we have no real idea :

1. When exactly it is announced ?
2. Will it be numbered ?
3. Will a GTS VS (will open top also be launched) ?
4. Will GTS VS be lower numbers than VS
5. Will it be say 925BHP/9000 RPM or a tickle more and a lame 75 Kgs off, put back in options ! Will it be less powerful than SF90.
6. Price point - small Pista uplift (inc free previous options like carbon) or 50% ?

 

Main question remains : do you really think an enthusiast would like to spend so much money for a TT in a electric car ???
Buy a NA and hit the road as soon as possible. In this case, a VS 812 is precious, not for speculation but for just for driving it .
Ferrari is another brand today , it s a fact and so much future F cars ll be stupidly fast , but so boring...

 

That's what I love about tdf - definitely NOT boring.

 

Very curious how the 812VS will compare to the tdf. If it’s really the last hardcore na v12 and numbered that’s gonna hurt tdf prices... and people who bought them at £1mm will be debating the consequences of F strategy one more. The tdf is such a masterpiece i somehow wish it remains immune...i have the feeling some people are already starting to sell their tdf ahead of the 812VS they already know they will be getting one

 

The 812 is the flagship line of the most exclusive brand of cars (and arguably the top brand of any product) in the world. Is that not the definition of "exclusive"?

LE cars aside, I don't see how one gets much more exclusive than owning an 812.

 

They bought cars for flip because they believed the sales pitch of the dealer. Flipping does in fact improve one's status with SpA (provided ownership lasts at least six months), but it is ultimately the dealer who decides who gets what.

Unless it is the numbered cars.

 

This is exactly right. Ferrari has no choice but to do these things. For all the disappointment expressed on this board, I doubt any of us would do things differently if we owned the company.

 

Sorry but I strongly disagree. Porsche produces several hundred thousand cars a year, so Ferrari most definitely do not follow the Porsche model.

As far as stock market, Ferrari is considered more a luxury goods maker than a car manufacturer - and gross profit margins drive the stock much more than anything. There is long term strategy. Maximizing margin is the goal.

 

F12 TDF v Speciale Aperta - Class of 2015 | SCD Driven

tdF:


812VS:
?????

high bar indeed!

 

In 1990 Porsche worldwide sales were ~15,000, then the growth:

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My statement was the direction Ferrari seems to want to take, growth each year, increasing production, Porsche took decades to achieve 280,000+ (2019) annual sales. And where they started in 1990 was not all that different than where Ferrari was last year, implication is Ferrari to be even more common, more cars, but, doesn't seem sustainable.

After all Ferrari is no stranger to high production, making more than 25,000 engines for Maserati per year...

 

^ this is in fact your best argument to date. And it is a challenge to Ferrari although lets face it nothing said on this forum will drive Ferrari's strategic corporate plans. If they only add 250 rpm over the F12/812 it will be a dud numbered or not. IMO it will be numbered because that is the strategic play. The 812 was not received well at intro and the demand has dried up as it's resale value falls. An LE VS will re-peak demand for the entire brand so it's a better play then what they've been doing especially in today's market.

The SF90 is a flip car at best due to interim hybrid design, first electric one out and unpopular styling. Of course, it's still a Ferrari and presumably faster than an LaF so against the masses it is fantastic. I do not understand the Monza series. For close to $2M and not road legal in the US yet definitely not a track car it has no understandable place. It does not look at all like the actual iconic Monza - it looks like a re-bodied F12/812 with an Asian style. There is almost no performance update either.

I would argue that Ferrari needs an 812VS and needs it to be numbered. The sell out and fight over the last of the last would be epic. But they have to deliver and that means pulling out the stops on the drivetrain, weight and styling. Think of it as a cheap hyper with the same mission. I'll bet that they had a great engine ready with the usual aero updates and one or two new technologies. This will not cut it now. They need to let loose the Kraken or keep it a fable.

 

Thank you.

Even the FXXK Evo "only manages" 9400 rpm (and it is not street legal and the cars are all directly maintained by the factory), so what are the chances Ferrari will use those internals? Maybe, but, maybe not, point is, the "best" they can probably produce is 9500rpm, no where near 10K or higher. Chances seems to be low to have a major rev limit increase.

If most buyers of the SF90 are intending to "flip", how is it so many 812SF orders moved to the SF90, given that was past the 812SF "flip" peak (by a year or more), I don't know if that is going to happen. I think maybe a new "top model" that is "rear mid-engine" was the appeal, after all, that is certainly more "exotic" than a front mid-engine any day of the week.

My thinking is it may just remain a fable and the upgraded motor be put into 812SF/GTS production, perhaps as an extra cost option, maybe this updated engine has some sort of "boost" function (i.e. turbo/forced induction)...hmm

The Monza is easy for me to understand.

Historically there has been a 8-10 year gap between "hypercars".

Ferrari wanted to decrease that time period without decreasing demand/pricing for the hypercar.

The "Icona" family was introduced, to offset the cycle, so every 8-10 years a new Icona.

This reduces the time period between high profit margin cars to every 5 years or so. And, better yet, they can be sold to the same clients.

Hypercars are hard to make and reducing their production cycle in half would be very difficult. But, the Icona family removes that burden, no need for it to be a hypercar, just an over the top _____.

 

The next Icona will come much faster than 8-10 years...


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Such great cars these 2 can’t stop looking at them. They aren’t making such cars anymore.
The million dollar question which one would you pick?

 

Easy. tdf.


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I strongly believe ferrari are going to have to change their model pricing and production thoughts to retain the solid base that has always been its strength for standard models - no doubt .
I have no insider knowledge (just gut instinct) but I’m certain there will be a VS of the coupe - I believe , numbered-812 Cars makes sense ....I’m 99% sure there will be a modified Aperta VS - makes sense to have numbered at around the 199 cars mark - the Laf Aperta showed that a v low numbered Aperta becomes too good a honey pot for collector enthusiasts not to pay a hefty premium for .
Ferrari have a history of pulling a surprise out of the bag - they are too good at what they do to not make a VS/VSAperta an outstanding success - definitely a financial success for them. Also , there are enough customers who are feeling uneasy /uncertain /disgruntled /spooked now , but will forget all that when a coquettish “spy” shot of a semi draped , curvy temptress haunch is seen ... they , like me , if ‘’chosen’’ are likely to orderly queue up ....
Undoubtedly there will be increased power /reduced weight etc etc blah blah ..however ferrari sprinkle their Magic Sauce on these LEs which makes them resistant to the standard model concerns.
My understanding of the Icona series may be wrong but is that an Icona would come out every couple of years until 5 models released . If you accepted and bought the MonzaSP1/2 then you were automatically 1st to be asked for the next Icona. This seems common sense and fair . The uncertainty in my mind is that since there were apparently some unallocated Monzas ( I may be wrong but I’ve heard from several sources ) where the pricing of the VS /VSAperta will be . IMHO the actual price won’t be performance /power sensitive but more production number sensitive ...
Basically , I’m hoping and believe that there will be a numbered VS -priced equivalent to a well specced SF90 , with the market easily being able to accommodate 200 or so Aperta priced at the £1Mill mark - a ‘bargain’ at £750k less than a Monza...
Anyways , I’m in the UK and think approx 80 RHD VS and 10 Apertas would be oversubscribed in the UK ...

 

Friend,
I am of the impression you disagree what I wrote above and will restate what my point was. If I am mistaken and you are in agreement, I apologize for my potential misunderstanding and thank you for reinforcing my point.
Your point is exactly my point and you restated my idea precisely.
The issue at hand here is one's use of "exclusivity" and for either language differences of all of us or colloquialisms or internet-based writing that does not communicate true meaning, some are misreading how people are intending to use this out of context. It also is an issue of "to whom" we are discussing the car being "exclusive" which will follow here.
The 812 is indeed a top tier and rare model. It is exclusive to most people on the earth. As I stated earlier, a Ferrari in general, regardless of model, is exclusive to most people on the earth. The 812 is even more exclusive with its less common production than a F8 for example. The 812VS will be even more exclusive to people on the earth and will be highly exclusive even among the Ferrari ownership community as is discussed on this thread.
My point is that owning a Ferrari in general is an exclusive endeavor and all of the cars are special (although those of us who seem to follow this subform probably find the 812 highly special).
I was intending to reply to Mr. Passione about his use of the term exclusive which I believe was being used as an indicator of number of cars produced. The question at hand there was that the 812 was in his view less exclusive because the cars were not being purchased as often or were more in supply. The meaning of exclusivity in his case (I believe) was rarity of production, not uniqueness/specialness of the model. A slight nuance, but makes a big difference to me.
Other than those who own and look in their garage every day, how often do you see a Ferrari on the road? I do not live in Monaco (although enjoyed traveling through it once, and as much as I find the F1 circuit interesting there would probably get tired of driving 30 kph or so in loops) so I do not see Ferraris or supercars daily and suspect most of us do not see these cars daily. With the exception of going to a car meet where others drive in to display their vehicles, I would legitimately say I do not see a Ferrari on the road during the good weather months of the year possibly every 2 months, perhaps more than that. That's any Ferrari model. I stated earlier I have never ever seen an 812 on the road. Yes, I would say these are rare, uncommon, special and unique cars given that.
My point was that the factory/company did not intend to make the base model 812 an "exclusive" car when defined as intentionally low production/numbered car/hard to obtain, unlike one of the versione speciale models in which it does intend to make it low production/numbered possibly/difficult to obtain without history. On the contrary, I believe their intent was to produce as many as they could sell, and the only difference in quantity was the time to produce vs the time to produce an 8 cylinder model for example. My personal example is that at one point I did, without any history of buying a prior V12 Ferrari, place an order for an 812. Without street credibility, I was able to place a deposit and order one, and thus the car was exclusive in general when viewed from all cars on the road, but not exclusive in that anyone can not buy it. That I could not do with the 812VS had that been available at the time, which would have been extremely rare and exclusive and equally exclusive for potential owners to obtain.
Finally, I would say if Ferrari would like to allow me to order an 812VS, I would gladly accept and will guarantee I will declare it exclusive in either manner we are discussing.