87 328--need advice on hard start issue-redux! | Page 3 | FerrariChat

87 328--need advice on hard start issue-redux!

Discussion in '308/328' started by greg328, May 10, 2013.

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  1. greg328

    greg328 F1 Rookie

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    #51 greg328, May 17, 2013
    Thanks Verrell, good to hear from you. Are you referring to the marelli ignition ecu in the drivers side trunk compartment? As I understand it, 328s only have one, where 308s have 2, I believe. I've checked that connector and it is corrosion-free. I'll check it again. I also will recheck the Bosch jetronix injection ecu on the passenger side. My car appears to have been pampered, as I see no corrosion on any connectors.

    I've ordered a bunch of stuff from Superformance UK, including two new flywheel sensors. I'll report all results here in this thread.

    Thanks
    Greg
     
  2. greg328

    greg328 F1 Rookie

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    #52 greg328, May 18, 2013
    1) Can anybody tell me where the forward flywheel sensor is located on a 328? The 328 spec sheet shows 2 sensors on the flywheel housing, one forward, one rearward. The rear one is easily seen and accessed; the forward one extends up and over, towards the front bank and disappears. Seems like it may be impossible to access with engine in-situ. ?? Hope not.

    2) This morning, as most mornings when the car starts, I can coax the car into starting, by deeply pressing the gas pedal as I crank. It may take 5 or 8 seconds sometimes. Now---does this sound like a spark issue to anybody? If I had an intermittent ignition component, wouldn't the car stumble and miss at times when running? My car NEVER does this. Once running, it's fine.

    Seems like a fuel issue to me. Remember, with both the safety and cold start blue connectors pulled, the car would start, and the frequency valve buzzed.

    Greg
     
  3. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #53 Steve Magnusson, May 18, 2013
    Last edited: May 18, 2013
    You are chasing the wrong thing here IMO. People have confused some (legitimate) issues that affect DigiPlex, but your 328 is MicroPlex. If you've got spark on both banks during starter motor cranking, not much of a chance that ignition is the problem. If you want to get deeper here, you could try using a timing light to confirm/deny the timing during starter motor cranking -- but, AFAIK, it has never been reported that spark is present on both banks, but occurring at the wrong time. But I just re-read the whole thread, and it is still unclear to me if you have ever confirmed/denied spark when the engine won't start easily -- i.e.:

    1. If you have spark on both banks during starter motor cranking, and you know the fuel pump is working (because you've unplugged the safety switch and can hear the FP run before cranking), but the engine won't start = dig into the fuel system.

    2. If you have no spark during starter motor cranking when the engine won't start = ignition system must be fixed.

    Until you can positively say whether your disease is 1 or 2, you are in the dark.

    This is good, but it doesn't confirm what the control pressure is doing -- when cold, it should be (much) lower than warm to add enrichment and aid starting. I realize that this is more difficult to do, and requires a special gauge set, but if you've got spark on both banks during starter motor cranking, I'd go here next <<<rant off ;)>>>
     
  4. greg328

    greg328 F1 Rookie

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    #54 greg328, May 18, 2013
    Steve,
    Thanks as always for your invaluable input. I'll pay your roundtrip airfare Austin/Houston if you want to check the car out in person!!!

    I'm interested in the flywheel sensor location simply because I've ordered a couple new ones and plan to replace ASAP, needed or not. It's part of a "freshening" I've been doing for the car since I got it. They're relatively inexpensive from Superformance UK, so they are on the way, along with a complete cam cover gasket and cam seal kit.

    Admittedly, a few months ago, you will recall the occasion when I reported no spark from the rear bank during cranking. It has been nigh impossible to re-create that situation since. Still, it raises unanswered questions.

    The persistent thoughts I have are:
    A) pressing the gas pedal most often will result in the car starting, albeit requiring 5-8 secs of cranking. Makes me worry about my starter health! This seems to point to a fuel feed/pressure issue. Remember I have new fuel pump/accumulator/filter.

    B) If I had an ignition issue, wouldn't my running engine exhibit some symptom of this? A loose or damaged sensor, etc,.. would surely result in a improperly-running engine. My wonderful 3.2 V8, when running, is as smooth (well, almost) as a Lexus V8!

    So, I guess I'd like to know, have I covered all the fuel-related bases? Hard-to-no-start fuel related 328 issues experienced by other users, who have found the solution?

    I need to check the front bank for spark; that's the last thing I need to do, I just haven't had time. I suspect it'll test normal...

    Greg
     
  5. andyww

    andyww F1 Rookie

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    #55 andyww, May 18, 2013
    I still think you need to check whether it starts if you press slightly down on the metering plate while cranking. That should determine whether the problem is being caused by no injection during start. You know injection happens when the plate is pressed as you have confirmed that.
     
  6. greg328

    greg328 F1 Rookie

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    #56 greg328, May 18, 2013
    I spoke to somebody today with a 308 QV who had my same exact symptoms. he as i, checked everything and it was all normal. finally he figured it out: the fuel distributor lower plate was out of position and causing a flooding condition. adjusting the fuel distributor fixed his car; now it starts on the first crank, every time.

    Hmmm.....
    Greg

    Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2
     
  7. greg328

    greg328 F1 Rookie

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    #57 greg328, May 18, 2013
    Steve, i saw this that you posted in a recent thread also about a 328:

    (quote)
    A bad accumulator or a bad seal in the regulator portion of the fuel distributor can also cause the rest fuel pressure to not be held. Have you had the resting fuel pressure after engine shutoff measured/timed?(close quote)

    Could this possibly be the cause of my woes? i remember when i first bought the car i noticed that hot starting was difficult so i installed a new fuel accumulator. When i removed the vent hose from the oem one it didn't drip fuel, so it was probably ok. could the problem have been my fuel distributor all along, but just steadily got worse to where even cold starts are now difficult?

    If so, I'd appreciate any info regarding the Bosch fuel distributor and how to troubleshoot it.

    Thanx
    Greg


    Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2
     
  8. andyww

    andyww F1 Rookie

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    #58 andyww, May 19, 2013
    Steve (and myself) have already answered this. Get a CIS test gauge and connect it to check the main fuel pressure and control pressure.

    Assuming its a fuelling problem, the problem is either too much fuel or not enough (obvious really). Trying to start with the plate pressed down very slightly would confirm not enough fuel if it then starts. But its probably more likely to be too much fuel. If you feel the metering plate you can check whether the plunger is sticking. If there is a degree of "play" before the resistance of the plunger is felt, then it suggests the plunger is not returning fully. If you press the plate while the system is still pressurized from the residual pressure in the accumulator you can feel that when the plate is allowed to rise, the plunger follows behind it and the degree of "play" gradually reduces to zero over a second or so.
     
  9. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #59 Steve Magnusson, May 19, 2013
    Last edited: May 19, 2013
    Losing the rest fuel pressure would cause hot restarting trouble, but not cold starting trouble. Since your posts indicate that cold starting is also poor, I would not put this at the top of the suspect list for your problem -- but once you (or a Mechanic) has the gauge set mounted on the system to measure the control pressure and the regulated supply pressure, measuring the rest pressure is a freebie (because it is just measuring the regulated supply pressure after shutting the engine off).

    Not much inside the fuel distributor itself that could cause your symptom IMO -- but checking the center plunger movement for sticking and checking that the airflow metering plate is not sticking/rubbing on the funnel walls are both good ideas (and easily done with no special equipment).
     
  10. greg328

    greg328 F1 Rookie

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    #60 greg328, May 19, 2013
    Andy and Steve,
    Thank you for the thoughts. i need to get an assistant to push the air meter plate as i crank, just nobody around lately to help. i fully intend to test this, no worries.

    Id like to purchase a set of CIS fuel pressure gauges if they're no too expensive. it would be nice to test it myself while the car is apart on jackstands in my garage.

    For what it's worth, the meter plate moves freely with no binding, and it seems to stay firmly upright overnight. yesterday with the engine running i pulled the throttle cable to see if the meter plate moved and indeed it did.

    And yes, cold start is definitely the main issue here. it's been so long since I've ran the car on the road until hot, turned it off and tried to restart it, i can't really speak to any current hot-start issue. when the car was new to me 18 months ago, hot starts were tough so i replaced the fuel accumulator. the cold start issue has occurred since then.

    Greg

    Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2
     
  11. greg328

    greg328 F1 Rookie

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    #61 greg328, May 19, 2013
    Guys,
    Would any of these Ebay CIS pressure testers suit my needs? They all seem to be capable of testing any Bosch CIS FI system. The first link is the best deal, lots of attachments:

    Master Fuel Injection Pump Pressure Test Kit Cise CIS Metric SAE Free Shipping | eBay

    Star Products Basic Fuel Injection Pressure Tester for Bosch CIS | eBay

    Tool Aid 53800 CIS K Jetronic Fuel Injection Pressure Tester | eBay

    It's more economical for me go ahead and purchase my own gauge set, rather than pay for somebody else to do it!

    Greg
    87 328
     
  12. lonnie77

    lonnie77 Karting

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    #62 lonnie77, May 19, 2013
  13. greg328

    greg328 F1 Rookie

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    #63 greg328, May 19, 2013
    Thanks lonnie, i was hoping somebody would help with that!
    Greg

    Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2
     
  14. mark5scuba

    mark5scuba Formula Junior

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    #64 mark5scuba, May 19, 2013
  15. mark5scuba

    mark5scuba Formula Junior

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    #65 mark5scuba, May 19, 2013
    Greg, sorry link came twice. Harbor Freight had another set for $20.00. The master kit on eBay is the same as Harbor freight and you can pick it up locally.
     
  16. greg328

    greg328 F1 Rookie

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    #66 greg328, May 19, 2013
    Last edited: May 19, 2013
    Lonnie--where the heck is that FW sensor located? :) Is that from a 308 or 328? I think they are positioned differently. I assume that's somewhere on the forward side of the engine.

    Mark, yep, I went online to Harbor Freight and found that Master set locally. The lower-cost Harbor Freight pressure gauge doesn't work with CIS Bosch, I think. I may grab the other one locally, thanks!

    Greg
     
  17. greg328

    greg328 F1 Rookie

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    #67 greg328, May 19, 2013
    Inquiring minds want to know: :)

    1) FUEL: I had my wife press gently on the air meter plate as I cranked the ignition. No change, still hard-to-start. Pressing the gas pedal helped to start the engine.

    Observation: the air meter plate, although fully-upright today after sitting for over a day, had light resistance to the touch. After cranking/running for a short bit, the air meter plate had LOTS of resistance, felt fully-pressurized. Is this normal, for the pressure on the plate to be much stronger immediately after running, then much less after car is off overnight? Mind you, the plate is not sagging, just lighter to the touch when engine is cold. With engine running, plate is slightly open, I assume this is normal.

    2) IGNITION: I checked both banks again with my inline spark tester. The rear bank sparks as normal, the tester flashes immediately upon key cranking. However, the front bank (first time I've checked front bank) had a 3-second delay before it began flashing. Is this normal? Seems both banks should immediately receive spark when starter is operational? This may be a telling sign, what say you, experts?

    Greg
    87 328
     
  18. jlc308

    jlc308 Karting

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    #68 jlc308, May 19, 2013
    I had the same exact problems awhile back and in my case it was defective digiplexes. However I have 85 308QV which is different from your car as I have two digiplexes and you have one Microplex. My car would take forever to start and I was told it was a timing issue but then there is no way timing can be adjusted. But then again the timing is pre set in the digiplex. Therfore I removed the boxes and had them tested and one was good, the other bad.

    As a test, I reconnected only one box(the good one) and the car started in a split second just like a Porsche. It ran and idled like a new Honda, but bear in mind it was only running on 4 cylinders. Then I disconnected and reconnected with the bad box and no start at all.

    You may want to have your Microplex box tested or if you know someone with a 328 who is willing to let you swap boxes just for a moment then you can be sure whether or not that is the problem. You can also send your box to ECU Doctors in Florida(ecudoctors.com) and they can test the box.

    The only bad news is if it is the box, sometimes they are non repairable because of lack of parts or they might be available for a real expensive price.
     
  19. andyww

    andyww F1 Rookie

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    #69 andyww, May 20, 2013
    Point 1 is absolutely normal.

    Point 2 sounds suspect. It suggests the ignition system might be marginal and the tester is indicating although the spark is too weak to fire.

    Have you removed and checked for corrosion all the connectors on the coils including the LT and HT leads which plug onto the bottom of the coils and the connectors which plug onto the coil driver modules.

    I would be tempted to use the old fashioned method of spark checking I mentioned earlier but thats probably just me...
     
  20. greg328

    greg328 F1 Rookie

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    #70 greg328, May 20, 2013
    Thanks Andy--so, pressing on the plate during cranking was NOT supposed to help start the engine? Then I'm normal there.

    All connections to the coils, both upper and lower, are corrosion-free. Also true for the Multiplex ECU. In fact, I can find no corrosion anywhere on this car; it has truly been pampered all it's life. 24,500 miles on an 87.

    I'm going to have to test my Marelli Multiplex ECU. I think I have that Carl Rose PDF here somewhere.

    Greg
     
  21. greg328

    greg328 F1 Rookie

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    #71 greg328, May 21, 2013
    So I tested my Marelli Microplex today using the Carl Rose PDF doc, and it turns out to be fine. Here are the readings:

    1) with key off, on the connector, I'm getting a very high resistance reading for the TDC sensor (pins 1 and 2) of 19.1m This may be an error, because the reading was very hard to take for some reason. When I tested this before, a few months ago, it was very normal at .720 The other RPM sensor (pins 3 and 16) tested normal at .720. Microplex ground was normal.
    Now, the TDC sensor may turn out to be my gremlin, but, the car started today as I ran other tests: (would it start if the TDC sensor was truly bad??)

    2) With key on (but not running): all tests were normal readings.

    3) Engine running using back probing with connector installed: the AC voltage readings of both flywheel sensors were within normal limits. This is why I think the TDC sensor resistance measurement above is probably wrong (?)
    ECU output to both banks was a bit high at 4.1v each (2.8-3.5v recommended). Is this OK? Strong voltage for sure. Tach signal normal.

    So, I feel certain the Microplex ECU itself is good. The TDC sensor could prove to be bad, but why will the car start if it is? Is this possible? Good news is, I have 2 new ones on the way.

    I also ordered a CSI fuel pressure tester, on the way as well, so I'll test that system next. Maybe I have leaky fuel injectors?

    Thanks for any insight re: above...

    Greg
     
  22. lonnie77

    lonnie77 Karting

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    #72 lonnie77, May 21, 2013
    Steve "The Teacher" provided better pictures. http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/mondial/364375-rough-idle-loss-power-backfire-5.html
    It's showing a 308 so ignore the senor at the bottom. To get to the TDC sensor I had to remove the distributor cap, rotor, the cap support, oil vapor separator and hose's or just move them out of the way and it makes it easier if you can remove the hood. A 1/4" wobble extension, swivel adapter and 8mm socket, there is no room for a 3/8. The sensor is tight and it will take some effort to remove. There are two lock washers so have a magnet and protect your fender.
     
  23. greg328

    greg328 F1 Rookie

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    #73 greg328, May 21, 2013
    Last edited: May 21, 2013
    Thanks Lonnie. So yes, I may have a bad TDC sensor, and I was afraid access would be a beyoch but... Please answer; would the car eventually start and run normally with a bad TDC sensor? Remember, readings while running were normal from both sensors.

    This seems to be the million dollar question!
    Greg
     
  24. andyww

    andyww F1 Rookie

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    #74 andyww, May 22, 2013
    As I mentioned earlier the answer is yes, I have seen this on other cars which use the same type of sensors, which were giving enough output at running speed but not enough during cranking.

    That does not mean it is that though. The checks you did should give a rough indication but the problem is, with this method you are testing a waveform with a meter which is not ideal, the only way to do it properly is with an oscilloscope. But if you have the sensors on the way no harm in changing them.

    At the end of the day though if you get a good spark on all cylinders and its correctly timed this is the sole function of the ignition system and you can consider it good.

    Just for fun you could remove the cold start injector and direct it into a jar. Confirm when the fuel pump is running (ie safety switch disconnected) it does not squirt until you start cranking. Usual cautions about resulting fuel vapour danger etc.
     
  25. greg328

    greg328 F1 Rookie

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    #75 greg328, May 22, 2013
    Thanks for the feedback Andy. Everything is pointing to a possible bad TDC sensor. Looks a challenge to replace but I'm up to it.

    I do plan to check fuel pressures when my CIS gauges arrive. I do like the idea of observing the cold start injector out of the intake. So, just remove the whole assembly from the intake and stick it in a jar?

    Greg
     
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