A6GCS Pininfarina Berlinetta

Discussion in 'Maserati' started by Portenos, Nov 15, 2009.

  1. Portenos

    Portenos Formula 3
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    Greetings from Argentina where we have been for the last three weeks with three more to go. Our first Argentine Car Guy Tour has been very well received with our group being invited to several workshops and private collections. Along the way we managed have been doing all the tourist things with our private tour guide, including Tango lessons!

    One of the most impressive places is Pur Sang located in Parana a scant 450 KLM from Buenos Aires. I have dubbed this cithy the "Modena of Argentina" Run by Mr.Leonidas Jorge Anadon this place takes us back to the late 30's and 40's when small groups of guys were simply building cars, only now they have computer assisted milling machines and reverse engineering technology. But the hand work is the same no computer can build an A6GCS Pininfarina or 2900 Alfa roadster body. Before you get your panties all wadded up in a knot please try to understand this is about "building cars" and appreciating "workmanship" NOT copying someone. Yes, they are very exacting copies to use the term but magnificently done.
    I have NO financial interest in this company and would NOT consider buying a Maserati reproduction, although it is very tempting. These cars have a tremendous "fun factor" for the buck. I have attached some videos showing their work including a running A6GCS.
    Please keep in mind they make "everything" in house, except the tires! As you will see they are also making vintage airplanes.
    I hope you will enjoy and appreciate what you are about to see.
    Ciao,
    FGM
    Posted Nov 13 2009

    Argentina CGT_30 - Alfa 8C2900, Bugatti and BMW 507 in Pur Sang body shop Time 2:51
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-infFJgYPqE

    Argentina CGT_29 Pur Sang radiator shop Time 2:16
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4yIQbFx0nM

    Argentina CGT_28- Maserati A6GCS Pininfarina makes a “hot lap” Time 1:50
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaeFye9CWFA

    Argentina CGT_27 - The Pur Sang Airplane 1913 Aero 504K
    An incredible work of art, that fly’s! Time 3:50
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWU4MRjfVJ0

    Argentina CGT_26 Roll out of the Maserati A6GCS Pininfarina Time 1:24
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGBxMQKhmFo
     
  2. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
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    #2 wbaeumer, Nov 15, 2009
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2009
    Frank,
    the Argentinians purchased the shell from the very late Giordanengo - and continued with a mistake he made when he restored the Frano Lombardi-A6GCS PF body many years ago.

    Giordanengo made a replica for a Gentleman in Belgium by using the "monokino" of the Lombardi-car and this replica got this mistake also.

    I am currently supervising a 2nd replica coming from Giordanengo`s grandson - but this one without that mistake! Photos of this car are coming later.

    The engine/gearbox for our project is from Germany, dyno-tested in a very professional race shop.

    Ciao!
    Walter
     
  3. fish78

    fish78 F1 Rookie

    Sep 10, 2004
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    Do you have a link fpr Pur Sang? As much as I hate to admit it, these and other replicas of some of the classics are the only way many of us might ever get to appoximate the experience of driving some of the finest cars ever. True, they are not the real thing...but damn...they look fun.
     
  4. Portenos

    Portenos Formula 3
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    My point exactly, its the fun factor stupid, and of course Walter is right about the flaws, but who cares? It is a gorgeous car at what I would guess to be one third the cost of the German engined more correct car.
    What is the price of your car Walter?
    Ciao,
    FGM
     
  5. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
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    Frank,
    its a hell of a car! And one of the most beautifull ever made. The Replica for my friend costs about 400K in Euros incl. engine & gearbox!

    Ciao!
    Walter
     
  6. Portenos

    Portenos Formula 3
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    The Argentine A6GCS is +- $450,000. Converting your euros to dollars = $600,000USD. I was off by 2%.
    FGM
     
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  8. Portenos

    Portenos Formula 3
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    Here are a couple more short videos of that Berlinetta as well as a shot of the great Alfa 2.9 under construction.

    Posted Nov 15 2009
    Argentina Car Guy Tour_36 Starting the Maserati
    Time 1:24
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ryq4RIlcK-8

    Argentina CGT_35 Walking around the Pininfarina Maserati A66CS
    Time 1:06
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYyAgeuhB1Y

    Argentina CGT_34 Off road with the bus. On our trip back from Parana in the bus we encountered a big traffic jam. So what did the bus driver do? Watch the video and find out.
    Time 1:07
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyjUzAfC7Hs

    Argentina CGT_33 Interview with Mr Anadon with the Alfa 8C 2.9
    Time 2:51
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoV7R8mk8Pg
     
  9. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
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    #8 wbaeumer, Nov 16, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  10. fish78

    fish78 F1 Rookie

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    #9 fish78, Nov 16, 2009
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2009
    Help me with the math here...1/3 of $600,000 is $200,000...where do you get 2% error? As I see it, you were ofe by a factor of nearly 2.
     
  11. Franco Lombardi

    Franco Lombardi Karting

    Nov 17, 2009
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    Franco Lombardi
    Walter.
    with reference to the two-tones of blue Pinin Farina Berlinetta ex 1954 Turin Show, I fully agree with your comment (elsewhere in this Forum): "it is one of the most beautiful autobobiles ever made". Being the owner of the car, I may add that I am fully aware of being a lucky guy.
    Let me specify for our fellow readers that out of the four berlinettas originally made, this is the only "low roof" version, being about 1 inch lower of the sister cars. Moreover it is the only one with a rear round tail, instead of having the small fins at rear, with a more squarish back. Its split windishield is the other unique element of my car.
    No question that, having all these features, the car produced in Argentina and illustrated here was somehow manifactured starting with the "manichino" made on my car by Giordanengo.
    My opinion about the this product? Not bad at all, although one should see it in bone and flesh to say something more. I have a feeling that the rear of the car might not be fully correct, as the hight of the roof and the rake of the windshield. Hard to say from what we see.
    Let me also add that I would not buy one, but I have nothing agaist it.
    You mentioned a mistake being originally made by Giordanengo during its restoration - a sort of original sin - being brought through by the Argentine equipe. Well, I think there are a few minor things wrong with its restoration (as with any other restoration I would say, having limited faith in absolute perfection) but having Giordanengo started with a totally original and unmolested body (no welding, opening, cutting, etc. and even having its original paint) I have some difficulty in seeing it.
    Perhaphs you might enlighten us...
    In the meantime, let me try to attach a couple of photos for our Maserati friends, if I succeed in handling these modern devices...
    Ciao,
    Franco
     
  12. f308jack

    f308jack F1 Rookie

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    Franco,

    Welcome to the fold, and what an entrance you made!

    If your excellent first post is anything to go by, my mouth is already watering thinking of the next one.

    You own an incredible machine.

    Ciao,
    Jack.
     
  13. Serenissma

    Serenissma Formula 3

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    Was your car for sale in 1978?

    Best regards!
    Magnus
     
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  15. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
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    Franco,
    Giordanengo showed me photos of your car when it was delivered to him many years ago. On this photos you can clearly see that the lower lipof the radiator opening was quite crunched.

    Giordanengo corrected that but made the lower lip in the same diameter than the upper lip. This was clearly wrong as can be seen not only on historic photos of your car also of old images of the other cars.
    The lower lip was more round than the upper one.

    From the design aspect this was made by PF very logically and gives the car a slightly bigger apperance on the front.

    Anyway, I looooooved the endless discussions about that with Giovanni ("...Walter, bruto! Bruttooooooo....!") and we both had lots of fun then!

    Ciao!
    Walter
     
  16. Franco Lombardi

    Franco Lombardi Karting

    Nov 17, 2009
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    #14 Franco Lombardi, Nov 19, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Walter,
    you have a good eye and spotted an area of perplexity for us. When we restored my car at Giordanengo we noticed that the lower lip when brought back to its correct shape, seemed slightly less deep at the bottom, compared to the original photos available, particularly those of the other sister cars. I had a long conversation with Aldo Brovarone (the car designer) to be sure of what we were doing and he remembered some serious discussion at Pinin Farina on that issue.
    The Turin coachbuilder was very good at masquerating some imposing front look on some of their sports car at the period. They did for axample an excellent job on the Ferrari 375MM, creating un upper lip well pronounced forward and downword in order to avoid the incumbence of a very large "mouth" (as Vignale was doing on the 250 and 340MM). Thanks to this wise "trick", only from a straight frontal view one might get the feeling of the huge size of the radiator grill on those cars. They were a bit worried of creating the same problem on the Maserati berlinettas, ending up with a "mouth" slightly too big for the overall size of that beautiful design.
    Being my car even lower then the other 3 barlinettas, they kept the lower lip a bit higher, just to reduce slightly the contrast between the radiator opening and the rest of the car. The only original frontal photo of my car at the Turin show, shows - as a matter of fact - a slightly less pronounced lower lip compared to what we see in the well-known frontal view of 2056.
    On the other hand, if you look at my original body (I hope to succed in placing a photo here) the crounch is really a dent, not really creating any difficulty in getting the lips back correctly.
    It is worth noticing -on the other hand - that none of the 3 other original bodies is today fitted with the original frontal opening. In a way or the other, all of them have different front grilles and "mouths" from the original ones. Slightly different in some cases, clearly wrong in one other, but this is something we all know.
    Thanks for pointing this out.
    I might also add that "living" inside the berlinetta is not as difficult as one might think. With a lot of detail adjustement we endedup with a fairly confortable driving position, even for a tall guy, but I may add that getting in and out is not the easiest task...
    Heath and noise are noticeable, but the deflectos brings in a lot of fresh air. Just the feet are fairly warm. I use earplugs only on the track or for long constant highway drives. On our "normal" rallies drives, you may perfectly live with it.
    Ciao,
    Franco
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  17. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
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    #15 wbaeumer, Nov 19, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Franco,
    I know the big front photoof your car from the Turin Show and got a copy of it.
    Little later we scanned it andput it into a CAD-computer at BMW in Munich. They worked on the angle and found out that the lower lip was more round than the upper one! Its easy to see even without a CAD when you messure the highest "tube" (where the Trident is mounted on) and divide this by 2. And at that point you take a straight line in a 90° angle to left and right - and clearly see that they made upper and lower lip differently! Here comes the 2nd original photo of your car from the Turin Show. It also clearly shows this detail.

    Ciao!
    Walter
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  18. Franco Lombardi

    Franco Lombardi Karting

    Nov 17, 2009
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    Walter,
    you are right in ponting out that the lower lip of my car should have been slightly deeper at the bottom. A bit less then the other cars, as Brovarore suggested, but still worth noticing
    There is at least one further mistake in the restoration of my car: Let's see if you have noticed it. Please, do not indicate a dozen or so, otherwise I might throw it away...
    Ciao,
    Franco
     
  19. Portenos

    Portenos Formula 3
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    #17 Portenos, Nov 19, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Franco,
    Welcome aboard our chat line and Walter it is always a pleasure to hear your perspective.

    I have attached still photos of the Lombardi "Clone" car in Argentina taken by me last week.
    It is of course well known that these are the tools sold by the gentleman in Cuneo to Argentina.
    I have also attached photos of two more cars in progress which seems to have been put on hold. To me the side of the car after the doors seems to be off. When studying the car in the photos the front (to me) was very acceptable, but the side seemed well I couldn't put my finger on it. Perhaps you or walter could enlighten me.
    Oh, thats a Tipo 35 Alfa wood buck in the background.
    Ciao,
    FGM
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  20. Nembo1777

    Nembo1777 F1 Rookie
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    #18 Nembo1777, Nov 19, 2009
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2009
    Franco: benvenuto and thank you -and Walter- for a very interesting thread: long may it continue!

    best regards,

    Marc

    PS: Franks post with the great photos below this one appeared after I clicked post so I add this edit because viewing your photos could it be that the front fenders, wings are a little bit too slab sided behind the front wheels on the replica compared to the slightly rounded ones on the original?
     
  21. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
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    Caro Franco,
    unfortunately I never saw your car in person. For the INt.Maserati Meeting in Italy I was in hospital suffering from my severe bike-crash. So I cannot see the other Mistake you mentioned.

    But - no, no - not throwing anything away....::))

    Ciao!
    Walter
     
  22. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
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    Hi Frank,
    the Argentinean clone sits to high on its front dampers and its door handles are not correct.

    Ciao!
    Walter
     
  23. Portenos

    Portenos Formula 3
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    As a side note: The good thing about the Argentine car is that we "Know" absolutely positively it is a recreation.
    No one is trying to say this A6GCS Pininfrarina Berlinetta is anything but a recreation.

    In fact Pur Sang has in my opinion attained "brand" status and is very well accepted in the Bugatti community. You should also see their Alfa Monza recreation, absolutely 100% amazing. Remember they make everything in house except the tires.
    Ciao,
    Frank Mandarano
    PS I'm looking for a 2007/2008 Quattroporte ZF Auto if you know of one.
    FGM
     
  24. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
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    #22 wbaeumer, Nov 20, 2009
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2009
    ...was to see HOW this car became reality today! Of course its not the "real thing" - but to recreate such a replica (incl. all components 100% correct!) demands the same skills than with Pininfarina in the 50ies!

    When "our" car was made I clearly stated to the Giordanengo-chaps that I don`t want to get a Pebble Beach-Drag-Queen! I wanted to see traces on the coachwork of the person who made it! Same with the rivets etc.!

    Also we decided to give the car a totally different color-sheme to avoid any confusion to Franco`s car (blue/blue), the Panini-car (red), the ex-Count Doenhoff-Coupe (silver), the ex-Lucchini (red) the US-car (dark-red) and the 1st replica that is in Belgium (black/blue).

    No idea in which cholor the cars from the Rio de la Plata comes - but I assume it will be like Franco`s!

    Ciao!
    Walter
     
  25. Franco Lombardi

    Franco Lombardi Karting

    Nov 17, 2009
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    Given that the history of the four original berlinettas is well-known and documented, I do not see great harm in those reproductions. I doubt anyone might later pretend he has discovered the missing fifth berlinetta...
    On the Argentine car, not much else to say, without seeing the car in bone and flesh. Yes, it seets a bit hight. but this will be probably taken care of. Some problems here and there - at the rear, for example - may be detected, but those guys obviously know how to work.
    It would be nice if this thread might help us to discuss a bit the history in period of the berlinettas.
    As you know, not much racing, aside from 2056 at the 1954 Giro di Sicilia (with its well known accident), 2057 at the 1954 Giro dell'Umbria (7th with Palmieri) and 1959 at the 1955 Mille Miglia with Magi Diligenti.
    Not much else, I believe. Do you confirm it, Walter?
    I regret not having investigated with Mimmo Dei a bit more, in 1977, when I contacted him, soon after after having bought my car.
    Franco
     
  26. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
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    Franco,
    no, I have researched (incl. photos) 6 races in total for all A6GCS PF Coupes.
    Your car -#2057- also raced in the 1954 MM with Palmieri and race-no. 518. It was a DNF.

    Ciao!
    Walter
     
  27. Chris365

    Chris365 Rookie

    Oct 12, 2009
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    Hi,

    I've never posted on this forum before, but I've been reading this thread with great interest and thought I would like to thank Franco and Walter you for sharing some of your knowledge of these cars. I'm a Chief Designer for a major automotive manufacturer and have always thought the Maserati A6GCS PininFarina is one of the most beautiful cars ever produced, and an inspiration to modern day car designers like myself. It's great to listen to you guys talking enthusiastically about the aesthetics and history of these cars, but It would also be great if you could post some of your experiences in owning these wonderful machines and perhaps some pictures of your cars as you use them today. It would be amazing if Franco could video himself driving his car at events and post it on the forum - the experience of the car being used in anger with the noise would be something most of us will never experience but we could get a real feel for what it's like.

    Chris
     

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