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ACCEPTABLE ?

Discussion in '458 Italia/488/F8' started by MANDALAY, Aug 25, 2019.

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  1. MANDALAY

    MANDALAY Formula 3
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    May 23, 2013
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    Want to here peoples view on the issue whether its acceptable to accept a less than perfect Ferrari when delivered.
    Back ground : I have been a resin chemist all my life and been around paint all that time also.
    Fact todays BS water based paints are nowhere to the level of oil based but its something that we have had to accept.
    With the roll out of increasing volumes of cars coming out and all the rush , most likely the GPF reason the cars have less that perfect paint.
    Would you reject taking the car you ordered which has a crappy paint job ? I know for many ( that are really rich ) say so what its a Ferrari.
    Think about those that have only longed for that one Ferrari.
    I can tell you I was on edge the whole time I waited for my 488 GTB and you cannot believe how happy I was to see a paint job that I had ZERO issue with.
    But how about if there was an issue ?
    Call me anal but I wouldn't accept the car , especially if it needed to be repainted. Gee these ultra expensive cars shouldn't even need paint correction , but many do and I could live with that.
    But lately I have been seeing many cars with faults. I saw a Pista and the paint on the hood basically was all pitted, forget about the rest of the car :(. Others with paint runs. Cars that had to be corrected so much that the clear coat was compromised.
    This is ridiculous. No new car should even leave Ferrari in this state.
    I do like the F8 and am seriously considering it but the paint issues are a joke.
    So would you reject accepting the car ?
     
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  2. mkraft3003

    mkraft3003 Karting

    Aug 20, 2016
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    I have had 3 McLarens, 4 Ferrari’s and many others and almost every paint job is less than to be desired. My McLaren 720s was an embarrassment. I have gotten all of them paint corrected and ceramic coated and they look better than you can imagine. My Pista is heading to the shop on Tuesday and will spend the week getting paint correction and ceramic coating.
     
  3. MANDALAY

    MANDALAY Formula 3
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    Should point out also, I really wanted RC for my 488 GTB but I just hate the dullness at certain angles. To the trained eye the RCM was a fantastic option as it just shines and still is RC.
    I took this option also because paying more for the paint gave me somewhat a little more confidence that it will be painted right. Maybe that's the reason why it was 100% perfect.
    BTW the cars with the issues that I saw were RC.
     
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  4. MANDALAY

    MANDALAY Formula 3
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    The Pista I saw was RC and had pin holes all over the hood. My missus couldn't see them and I dare say many others wouldn't also , but I could.
     
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  5. carz80am

    carz80am Formula Junior

    Sep 23, 2015
    377
    Northern Virginia/DC
    All my new Ferrari's paint jobs are pathetic. Paint correction helps, but they are still not on the same level of other manufacturers. My toyota tundra had a better paint job then my pista...
     
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  6. clockem

    clockem Formula Junior

    May 18, 2009
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    Numerous Pista’s have been coming into dealers with significant paint issues. I know of 5 Pista’s (several different dealers) that Ferrari failed to include the stripe on the car!

    How screwed up is Ferrari QC if they can’t see that a car was ordered with a stripe and leaves the factory without one. How when you only produce a total of 9,000 cars a year and maybe 1500 Pista’s a year you miss a stripe on the car?

    The reason Ferrari could care less, once the car leaves the destination country’s port to be shipped to a dealer it’s a sold car. The car without the stripe is the dealers problem not Ferrari. Ferrari wipes their hands clean of the issue and says “stripes, we did not see no stinking stripe on Modus” which the dealers and Ferrari known Modus has the option on the order.
     
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  7. mkraft3003

    mkraft3003 Karting

    Aug 20, 2016
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    My old 812 was RC as is my Pista. The 812 looked like a different car after the paint correction/ ceramic and it really made the RC pop.
     
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  8. SoCal to az

    SoCal to az F1 Veteran
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    Nov 25, 2012
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    Wow. Have never heard this. I mean I can see mistakes being made but to miss a stripe? Serious?
     
  9. MANDALAY

    MANDALAY Formula 3
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    The Pista is a unique problem in so far that if I had one ordered I could reject it or sell it at higher than the MSPR.

    But what if its a Lusso ,Portofino , 488 Spyder or any other new Ferrari ?

    Yes its a dealerships problem. I know first hand at their anguish to tell the customer , "sorry there is problem with your car , do you want us to leave it as it is or respray it ? "
    How the hell do you respray / fix a striped panel ?
     
  10. tekaefixe

    tekaefixe Formula Junior

    May 10, 2012
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    You have a technical background that allows you to see much more detail than most of us but of course anyone can see an orange peel in the pain. Regardless of your specialized eyes or not it's unthinkable that such expensive cars come like that from factory.
     
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  11. Eilig

    Eilig Formula 3
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    Or the wrong color stripe. Or the wrong color car. YES it has happened very recently!!
     
  12. chrixxx

    chrixxx Formula Junior
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  13. Gh21631

    Gh21631 F1 Rookie
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    McLaren and Ferrari are similar in this way - the level of quality is inconsistent. This would include paint, panel fitment, corrosion, etc. In many cases the dealers can correct these things but often times it requires a lot of work. If my car was delivered with issues that could not be resolved 100% I would pass on it.
     
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  14. JohnTz

    JohnTz Karting

    Jun 21, 2018
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    My RC 488GTB is 100% perfect. Awesome paint just a little soft so clear bra a must.
     
  15. Coincid

    Coincid Formula 3

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    Why this hit and miss? Painting any car,let alone one that costs $300K and more, should not leave the factory with any flaws or issues. The fact that it does, is indicative of poor Q/C. And that lack of attention to detail must be pervasive in all areas of the car's assembly and production. Owners must stop contributing to this phenomenon by accepting cars that do not conform to an expected perfectionist corporate culture. Excuses like this is merely a function of low volume , handmade production, is responsible for perpetuating this sloppiness. Rejecting substandard cars would undoubtedly cause a substantive reversal of the existence of cars that do not meet the requisite standard of quality.
     
  16. Gh21631

    Gh21631 F1 Rookie
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    I agree but buyers have accepted less than perfect cars for years and so a precedence has been set. Going forward I can see where this would/should change.
     
  17. Coincid

    Coincid Formula 3

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    It is ironic, that if a super car is in a minor accident that involves the most insignificant cosmetic damage that necessitates a small paint job, the value of the car drops precipitously in value and becomes more difficult to sell. Yet if the car arrives at the dealer requiring repainting, no big deal.
     
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  18. Graz

    Graz Formula 3
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    Don’t be surprised if the mistake in the order was made by the dealership in the first place. I remember ordering my first new Ferrari. I spent weeks deciding on exactly what spec, options etc I wanted. I did this with my “salesman” at the dealership. Once it was time to give the deposit and place the order he had the whole thing screwed up, including a misspelling of my name on the build. Point is as long as your dealing with humans mistakes can and will be made. I still say customer service is far superior at a Lexus or Toyota dealership. Cars aren’t the problem. It’s the people that represent them.
     
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  19. Lukeylikey

    Lukeylikey Formula 3
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    #19 Lukeylikey, Aug 26, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2019
    As I understand it orange peel is not a fault - all cars have it to some degree and it comes from a step in the process that is actually designed to stop paint quality problems. When the car is at first coat stage (primer) these days no serious manufacturer will flat the coat because they cannot risk any moisture at all getting underneath the top coats - first rule, do NOT touch the prime coat. If they do, this will lead to any moisture trapped underneath the top coats reaching the surface at some point in the future. This will always happen, without fail and is considered a serious and very expensive defect. So you cannot touch the prime coat. This means that the top coats are laid over an un-flat prime coat by design. This was no problem with oil-based paints but with water-based paints it means that they are laid on top of a non-flat surface. You can lessen the effect and some examples from the same factory will be better than others but it is not a defect per se. Whereas bubbling paint most certainly is and should be rejected because it means something went wrong in the process and there will be more issues lurking underneath not yet visible.
     
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  20. AlfistaPortoghese

    AlfistaPortoghese Moderator
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    Mar 18, 2014
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    I believe that if I were as knowledgeable as Angelo (which I’m not, never have been and never will be), I would find this truly unacceptable under any light, let alone when you spend north of 300k on a toy. It is inevitable that high expectations come with hefty price tags.

    However, if this is indeed such a widespread issue, my guess is that we (Ferrari customers) accept it because of two main reasons:

    1) We don’t possess a degree of expertise in this matter to detect the enormity of the flaw.
    2) There’s an emotional component to buying a Ferrari that often challenges reason, namely when one has spent several months (or more than a year) waiting for a car. You just want it to pick it up and go have fun, you let your guard down.

    If someone as knowledgeable and qualified as Angelo tells me there’s a problem with a car’s paint, I will believe him. Regardless of Ferrari finds a solution or not, I believe you should indeed say something, in writing if necessary. I believe that if you didn’t see it, tough luck but ok. If you spot it, say something.

    Kind regards,

    Nuno.
     
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  21. raclaims

    raclaims Formula Junior

    Jun 6, 2007
    465
    Northern NJ
    My 458 paint was awful and it took my detailer 2 days to get it to "ok"...my F12 was perfect...will see how the Pista is when it arrives..I also bought a used Testarossa and no issues with the paint on a 1989 car!
     
  22. Coincid

    Coincid Formula 3

    Dec 9, 2014
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    A masters degree in paint chemistry is not required to ascertain obvious paint flaws that are being described by owners. Technical explanations (excuses) about the difficulties in the proper processes in paint application are irrelevant to the buyer. Of sole importance is receiving a car that is immaculately finished and will remain in the state for the life of the car with proper maintenance.
     
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  23. PA Wolfpacker

    PA Wolfpacker Formula Junior

    Aug 19, 2007
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    When Ferrari announced the strategy for RACE they discussed the goal of becoming a top luxury brand. Top luxury brands guard their brand and demand the highest quality and customer service.

    If Ferrari wants to trade their stock as a luxury brand they need to start operating as one.
     
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  24. Steinhart

    Steinhart Karting

    May 21, 2019
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    if buyers did not accept cars due to paint issues it would force Ferrari to change

    but buyers allow it to happen

    maybe now with competition from other supercar manufacturers, Ferrari will have to tighten up it's paint tolerances, in the same way that American cars had to make better cars so they could compete with foreign car makers

    competition for the dollar may force all supercar makers to do better
     
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  25. Lukeylikey

    Lukeylikey Formula 3
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    #25 Lukeylikey, Aug 26, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2019
    I do think we have to draw a distinction between poor quality (perceived) paint and defective paint. This is a highly complex area involving prevention of defects developing in service and the need to use environmentally friendly paint and painting processes and techniques, plus successful repair ability across multiple workshops globally - often working to different quality standards, less controllable by the factory. Spending much less than $300k should entitle you to nice paint given that some manufacturers can achieve it for a $30k car. The fact that BMW, Mercedes and many other premium quality brands have what many might call poor quality paint (high degree of orange peel etc.) shows that this is not simple. And it is definitely one area where high volume helps - a $150m paint shop over 10,000 cars is much more expensive per car than a $750m paint shop over 1m cars but every one of those 1m cars is painted in a paint shop worth $750m.

    A low-volume manufacturer can give the customer what is perceived as nice quality paint when the car is new by using techniques that add to the risk of defects in use - as I mentioned before, getting any moisture at all under the top coats will 100% result in that moisture surfacing, be it 1 month, 6 months or 10 years in the future. To use a water-based paint and get a very flat (non orange peel) surface you either need to use very thick paint (which I understand can bring with it other problems) or find a way to apply the under layers in such a way that they are flat or flatter - mostly this introduces risk of moisture. Zanasi do an amazing job and somehow find a way to do this for Ferrari’s triple layer paints but it is very expensive to do, requires lots of hours of individual attention per car to ensure that the paint looks great and there is less risk of problems further down the line. I would still bet that a high percentage of the $28k you pay is a warranty reserve though, even for Zanasi’s usually excellent work.

    No excuse for true defects, but that Is not the same as what some see as poor quality paint.

    This article is interesting and talks about some of the challenges of paintshop investment for manufacturers and how the industry has a few suppliers only due to the complexity and consistency required...

    https://www.autonews.com/article/20160418/OEM10/304189991/complex-costly-work-leaves-3-paint-suppliers-to-dominate-business
     
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