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All That Work For Nothing...Well, Sort of.

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by Shamile, Mar 30, 2009.

  1. Shamile

    Shamile F1 Veteran

    Dec 31, 2002
    6,563
    Lakeland FL
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    Shamile
    Dear Ferraristi,

    As y'all know I've been working on my clutch and a whole bunch of "while I'm in there" for the last 4 months. I finally got the car back on the road and I have a real shifting issue.

    BTW, it took 4 months as I had to learn how to do it and had to beg for help in many pmails. :)

    First, special thanks to:

    Tom Tbakowsky - clutch alignment markings and torque specs, silicone grease for spline

    Gabe Morlales ( Head F Tech, Ferrari Central Florida ) - clutch markings, alignment & centering

    Newman - torque spec, pilot bearing removal, RMS Re / Re

    Rifledriver - balancing of clutch discs, lube of RMS


    Well, the clutch works just fine. I replaced the slave seals and the clutch works perfectly. I can have it in gear and rev the engine and the car doesn't move. The pedal feels smooth and weighted....and it doesn't stick :) There are no leaks of fluid out of the bell housing and no vibration.

    Here's the problem...

    Just before the clutch pedal stuck to the floor and fluid leaking out of the bell housing, I started to have real bad shifting. I thought the problem was that with the fluid leaking out of the slave cylinder, there wasn't enough pressure to release the clutch and basically you are trying to shift with a partially engaged clutch.

    Well now that the clutch works great....it's obviously another issue.

    Before the clutch work, I could shift into R, 1st, 3rd and 5th just fine. It would not go into 2nd or 4th...cold or nice and warm. I live in FL so the weather is always warm relative to a "cold" gearbox.

    If I was slowing down to about 15mph coming to a crawl, I could put it into 4th or 2nd no problems...no noise, no resistance, no kickback feel in the shifter knob.

    Once back on the "loud" pedal, slowly or really fast, I could not get 2nd or 4th.

    After the clutch and slave seal work....the same....sigh.

    BUT....it gets worse. :(

    While having a great test run....super silky smooth running....the shifting is gone.

    OK, while on my super silky smooth run, some idiot pulls right in front of me. No no, no accident but I push the clutch in, hit the brakes and instinctively downshift....into 4th. I was going at a slower speed and after the fact noticed that it went right into gear...no bad feel or noise. OK, perhaps things are getting better.

    Well....after that, all gears became impossible to shift. It first got very hard to get into gear then impossible. I barely made it home. After a few traffic lights, I only had 3rd gear. Even at a stop, I had to come back up to speed from standstill in 3rd. Again with the clutch in, no creeping no issues.

    Now in the garage, it won't go into reverse or anything. If I shut the engine off, I can access all gears without resistance. If I put the car into gear and clutch in and start the car, the car will move and can get it out of gear...not back in.

    Before I send the car off, is there anything I can check myself...like a broken bushing in the shifter?

    I've heard many mentioning a "shifter adjustment". What is meant by this? At the shifter itself or on the engine side?

    Any advice would be appreciated or to at least to get an idea of what kind of cost I'm in for. I have no idea on this one.

    BTW, the car felt really good....while it lasted.


    Shamile

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  3. Mr.Chairman

    Mr.Chairman F1 Rookie

    Mar 21, 2008
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    Still sounds like a bad pressure plate or throw bearing.. You changed the throw bearing? Maybe the re-install of the clutch was done incorrectly. Did you bleed the clutch again after re-assembly? And this may be a dumb question but did you re-install gear oil in the clutch housing once you re-assembled? Sorry to hear of these problems. I I hope it is something minor and your back on the road asap..

    Robbie
     
  4. Shamile

    Shamile F1 Veteran

    Dec 31, 2002
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    #3 Shamile, Mar 30, 2009
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2009
    Hi Chairman,

    I really think the clutch is fine. Like I said, I can have it in gear, clutch in and rev...car doesn't move. Release is smooth without jerkiness or stalling.

    Before the car pulling out in front of me, I had R, 1st, 3rd and 5th. Super smooth engagement, no noise no resistance. I wonder since I pushed it into 4th, I knocked something out of alignment?

    If it was the clutch, I would have had problems in all gears.

    No noise on TO bearing. It felt very smooth to the touch and just reused it. It doesn't do anything special except act as a rolling pressure object to push the pressure plate fingers to open the clutch.

    BTW, clutch bled to death ( very good feel in pedal) and yes....gear oil in place :D


    Shamile

    Freeze...Miami Vice !
     
  5. silvergts1998

    silvergts1998 Formula 3

    Apr 10, 2005
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    You didn't disconnect your shift linkage did you?
     
  6. 2dinos

    2dinos F1 Rookie

    Jan 13, 2007
    2,525
    Check the "silent bloc" on the input shaft. This goes and causes all sorts of erratic shift prob's. It basically makes the shift alignment go out at-will, and is very easily overlooked. It has anly a couple of mm of rubber wall, but that is more than enough to limit engagement all over the place. The PN is 106814, and it's a pricely little bushing. It looks like $5, and it's closer to $60! To change it, you'll need some simple, but special pullers. Do a search on this site, and I'm sure you'll find more details.
     
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  8. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    Could be that or the turn buckle slipped.

    BTW An input shaft is a transmission shaft. You are speaking of the shifter or shift shaft.
     
  9. 2dinos

    2dinos F1 Rookie

    Jan 13, 2007
    2,525
    OOPS! I mean the shift shaft.
     
  10. Shamile

    Shamile F1 Veteran

    Dec 31, 2002
    6,563
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    Dear Ferraristi,

    No, there was no need to do that. Actually, your pix from your TO bearing re/re was very helpful. :)

    Thanks, I'll do some research.


    May I ask what a "turn buckle" is?


    Thanks guys ! By what y'all have described here, can I do this?

    ....or does this take the experienced hand of an F tech? When it comes to adjustments...experience matters.


    Shamile

    Freeze...Miami Vice !
     
  11. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    27,114
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    Brian Crall

    It is the adjustment in the middle of the shift sahft below the fuel tanks. You can do it but be patient. It is trial and error and the first time you do it it will be frustrating.
     
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  13. Shamile

    Shamile F1 Veteran

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    #10 Shamile, Mar 31, 2009
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2009
    Dear Ferraristi,


    The "search" function is your friend!

    Verrell makes a Delrin replacement for the silent bloc. Should I go with his or stick with OEM? What do you advise?




    Rifledriver,

    Oh, I see what you mean. Part 28 & 44 on TAV 35.

    No problem about patience. I love learning how to do stuff on these cars. It's my way of relaxing...ok, that sounds kinda twisted. :D

    When you talk about adjusting the turnbuckle, what am I looking for. I assume by the picture on TAV 35, one is adusting less thread / more thread on the shifter shaft. What am I aiming for?



    I will replace both silent blocs first. I will replace both the one at the shifter column end and the one at the engine side. Then I will tackle the issue of understanding the adjustment of the turnbuckle.


    I feel a little better now. I have something to tackle before I give up the car to the F pimp. :D



    Shamile

    Freeze...Miami Vice !
     
  14. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    27,114
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    Put trans in 2nd before disconnecting shifter.

    The turnbuckle provides 2 different adjustments. 1st is engagement. The length should be adjusted so that when shifting back and forth from 2+3 the shifter stops with about the same gap to the bottom of the gate groove for both gears. The check to see if it is about the same for all gears. If not there is an internal problem that needs to be taken care of. Then to check place it in N and it should be in the middle longitudinally. Next adjustment is selection or rotational adjustment. Place it in second gear loosen a locknut and while feeling for the middle of the range of possible movement of both shifter pieces retighten the locknut. That is much easier said than done. With the rear wheels in the air feel the operation of the shifter and if it feel good try again with motor running and shifting gears very rapidly. With very minor adjustments that are very hard to do consistantly, get it adjusted so that the internal operation of the shift mechanisim exactly matches the movement of the shifter through the shift gate. It should not hang up anywhere. I shift it as fast as possible both up and down through all the gears. I also skip gears and go to 3-5, 1-3 etc. I try every possibility to to make it fail to just slide into every gear no matter how sloppy I shift. It can be done but that method is much more easily accomplished if you are familiar with the internal workings of the transmission and it requires that the internal linkage is correctly adjusted. It also works far better than the factory procedure which does not take into account several variables. The factory method is why so few of them shifted properly leaving Maranello.
     
  15. uzz32soarer

    uzz32soarer F1 Rookie
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    I've also heard similar issues that were the result of the 'silent block' which is basically a small rubber bushing on each end of the selector rod. These are notorious for becoming flogged out, especially if you have ever had any sort of a fluid leak at the front of the engine.

    The one under the shifter is a pig to get to, whereas the one at the back is easy peasy.
     
  16. Shamile

    Shamile F1 Veteran

    Dec 31, 2002
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    Shamile
    Ummm.....wow.

    Ok, I'm going to have to read that way more than a few times to get it. :D

    But thanks for the detailed write-up.


    Shamile

    Freeze...Miami Vice !
     
  17. Shamile

    Shamile F1 Veteran

    Dec 31, 2002
    6,563
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    Dear Ferraristi,

    Anyone know where I can buy a tool to remove and replace the silent bloc?

    BTW, I'll be going with Verrell's delrin version.


    ....hope this gets it. :)


    Shamile

    Freeze...Miami Vice !
     
  18. Shamile

    Shamile F1 Veteran

    Dec 31, 2002
    6,563
    Lakeland FL
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    Dear Ferraristi,


    Well after much time and effort, I got both silent bloc replaced with Verrel's Delrin bushings. The one at the engine side was completely worn out and even the center steel sleeve was oval-ed out...wow!

    Man, what a pain to remove those things. But after a combination of bolts, washers and spacers ( all grade 8 ) I got both replaced. I didn't even have to remove the center console! After getting the hang of doing the engine side, the shifter side bloc came out rather well. Hey if anyone wants theirs changed....just swing by my place. :D

    But....after all this ( again) ARRRGGGHHHH ! ....It still won't shift gears! :(

    With the engine running, it won't go into any gear. With the engine off, it will barely go into gear and side to side action of the shift leaver is extremely notchy.

    A couple of observations:

    - When the shifter shaft was decoupled from the shifter, the shifter action is very smooth back and forth side to side. No binding in the shifter column.

    - When the shifter shaft was decoupled from the input shaft to the gearbox, the input shaft ( with my fingers ) would go back and forth and side to side ( running through the gears ) would go extremely smoothly.

    - When both sides of the shifter shaft are coupled with both ends at the silent bloc....very notchy and binding feel.

    - noticed on the turnbuckle (even thought it's tight ) a 1/4" of clean thread showing. Even though my car is very clean, it's still a daily driver and driven in the rain. The shifter shaft at the turnbuckle has typical oxidization and is dull in color. BUT....on the shifter side of the turnbuckle after the lock nut is 1/4" of very clean thread. Strange....because it's not loose to the touch.

    Could the adjustment turnbuckle have slipped down a few thread?


    I guess the next step is the turnbuckle adjustment.

    Even though Rifledriver has given a complete description....is there more steps to go through as I'm a beginner here.

    More steps and suggestions the better.....please :)

    But....I did get the silent bloc in !


    Shamile

    Freeze...Miami Vice !
     
  19. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
    Professional Ferrari Technician Consultant Owner

    Dec 26, 2001
    13,684
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    Maybe you forgot to put oil back in the gearbox after you did the clutch!
     
  20. Shamile

    Shamile F1 Veteran

    Dec 31, 2002
    6,563
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    Dear Ferraristi,

    Yeah, yeah....oil was put back in the gearbox. It's really hard to forget as that gear oil really stinks up the whole garage....fresh, right out of the bottle.

    Observations:

    Did the turnbuckle adj. today....to no avail.

    I now understand what Rifledriver was saying about the in-out adj of the turnbuckle. Wow, just a few turns and the shift lever goes completely out of center. BTW, the clean thread situation was nothing as I wound back the thread and the shift lever went completely off center N.

    I untighted and tighten the nut on the engine side of the turnbuckle....wow....again, the finest of twist makes the shifter slide side to side or bind up. I still haven't got it yet.

    When the engine is off, I can get the car into gear. Running...it won't go. I noticed that if I left the nut loose on the turnbuckle on the engine side of the shift shaft, it would go into second and third. (since the nut was loose, I couldn't try the other gears as the shifter would turn into the turnbuckle and not transmit the input to the gearbox....but it did go in....hmmm.

    Just wondering, should the shift shaft be absolutely straight? I noticed that mine has a rotational twist in it....or bend. If I tried (from the input shaft on the engine) to turn it left or right...to select other gears, I would see the shift shaft at the turnbuckle want to twist upwards or twist downwards. This doesn't make sense. Shouldn't the shift shaft be absolutely straight? If it has a bend....you are trying to adjust for a compound angle...no?

    Please advise.


    Shamile

    Freeze...Miami Vice !
     
  21. Jagbuff

    Jagbuff Formula 3

    Jan 13, 2004
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    Franck
    Shamile:

    Are you sure the clutch is depressing or is not seized? I have that happen after cleaning the engine - same symptoms - car would go in gear when engine was stopped but not when running.

    Do the following test, put in gear when engine not running - put on the handbrake, press the clutch pedal and BRAKE HARD - try to start the car. If the starter strains and car lurches forward cut ignition immediately, this is an indication that the clutch is not releasing and there is a problem requiring at the very least a good bleeding of the system. BTW, doing that little test above solved my problem as the torque from the starter caused the disk to "unstick" from the pressure plate.
    Good luck
     
  22. Shamile

    Shamile F1 Veteran

    Dec 31, 2002
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    False alarm....the shift rod is absolutely straight. I pulled it out today and put on some graph paper and no bends....not even the thread. I guess when I was twisting it by hand at the engine, it made the rod jump as the turnbuckle was loose.

    Back to Square 1.

    Thanks Jagbuff, but the clutch works. To test again, I put the clutch in, put the car in gear, started the car and revved it up....no movement or anything. Backed out the clutch...car starts to move....clutch in....car backs off. Even before I lost all gears, I drove the car...no clutch issues at the traffic lights. ( still had no 2nd or 4th )

    I really think I struggling with an rod alignment problem and probable and clutch fork alignment issue. I really want to rule out the rod alignment before I give up and send the car off to the Fpimp. It's frustrating but boy...I'm learning allot!

    The rod goes back tomorrow as I couldn't resist refurbishing and repainting it....you know..."while I was in there" :)


    Shamile

    Freeze...Miami Vice !
     
  23. Shamile

    Shamile F1 Veteran

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    #20 Shamile, Apr 23, 2009
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2009
    Dear Ferraristi,

    From my last posts, I pulled the shift shaft to see if it was straight ( it is ) and cleaned it up and repainted it. I went to put it back and hooked it up to the input shaft on the gearbox and now I can't get it out of gear. Even with pulling on the shifter, it won't budge out of gear.

    I disconnected the rod and here's what I felt at the input shaft.

    I believe it's still in second gear. I can feel the shaft lock in a straight upright position if I pull forward. If I push it back, it just wants to go back...no resistance or stop.

    If I push all the way in, and turn to the passenger side and pull forward and twist slightly, I can feel it go into the 4/5 fork.

    If I push all the way in, and turn to the driver side and pull forward and twist slightly, I can feel it go into R/1 fork.

    If I twist all the way left or right, I can feel it slide past the 4/5 fork and R/1 fork, right after I can turn it upright position and pull forward, it meets resistance but while still upright but now pushed back....no resistance.

    Have I done something to lose placement in 2/3 fork? How do I get the input shaft back in position. I have tried and tried but can't click it somewhere where it will pull forward with the selector.

    If I twist it to the side and pull all the way forward. the shaft narrows to where gear oil starts coming out but it still held in the hole by the fork actuator.

    I'm now below step 1 :(

    What did I do?

    The only think I can think of is to start the engine clutch engaged and perhaps slightly releasing the clutch and then back in will line up the syncro and can pull it out of gear so I can start the alignment procedure all over again. I'm a little afraid to start the car with it in an uncontrollable gear situation as I don't want to break something. The car is on jack stands so, it's not going to lurch forward or anything.

    BTW, the wheels are locked to the gearbox and can't turn them. I couldn't find a neighborhood kid to push the clutch in while I turned the rear wheels, so I don't know if they will turn.

    ....it just gets worse, doesn't it. :(

    ...still not ready to give up yet ! :)


    Shamile

    Freeze...Miami Vice !
     
  24. JIMBO

    JIMBO Formula 3
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    Man, Shamile, that bites.
    At this point I would consider bringing the beast to someone with supreme expertise in these matters. It might be one of those things where you need to know the "trick" that is not in the books and wham-bam, it's on the road in 15 minutes (or worse, it might be "good thing you did not start it in gear or you would have ripped the whole transmission to shreds").
    You have gone further than anyone I know with this. Your courage and persistence are unmatched, but sometimes we have to acquiese to the professionals before we break really, really expensive stuff. Just my $.02
    ...Jimbo
     
  25. Shamile

    Shamile F1 Veteran

    Dec 31, 2002
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    Dear Ferraristi,

    I know where you're coming from Jim. I take your advice to heart and because I know you personally, I know you mean well.

    But....here's where I'm coming from. For me, this is a technical puzzle to solve. The reason I drive these high maintenance "beasts" is to work on them and learn. For me this is fun....ok, sometimes frustrating. I'm not afraid of the car and love getting in there and taking things apart.....putting it back together....well, that's a another story. :)

    My background is putting manufacturing companies together coupled with production processes. My current business is mature and kinda runs itself allbeit a small company. All the technical issues are solved and all the engineering is complete. The Ferrari and Lamborghini allow me new and enjoyable challenges. I don't work on everything though. My F 250's go straight to the Ford dealer for everything....no fun or interest working on a truck.

    I don't mind experimenting and if I break something....it's my fault. Of course...I know my limits....no self belt change and valve adj......yet. I don't even know how to use a degree wheel. BUT....a few posts ago, I didn't know what a turnbuckle was. A couple of months ago, I couldn't change the RMS, let alone a clutch. With all the help and especially the valuable assistance from Ftech's like Rifledriver, Tom Tbakowsky, Fastradio, Dr Ferrari, Newman and inspirational diy'ers like Carguy and Steve Mag., I know I can solve it.

    When I got the clutch done, it was nervous excitement as I pulled the car out for the first time. Nervousness turned to excitement as I released the clutch and smoothly launched in first gear....which then turned to disappointment when I couldn't get second gear ( my old problem ). Oh well, one problem down, another to solve.

    Hey, I wish I knew how to adjust the clutch forks. I dying to take the side panel off and peak under her dress. But....that's beyond me....for now.

    I just don't want to give up just yet....see what happens when you're NOT married. No one to make you put your time on things you don't want to do. :D

    Shamile

    Freeze....Miami Vice !
     
  26. barabus

    barabus F1 Rookie

    Aug 22, 2004
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    Shamile i love your positive attitude you certainly are a admirable 'have a goer' Good luck with sorting your current problem, you certainly have the tenacity to succeed with a little help from the geezers you mentioned who have also been a great help to me in the past (and present) and future i hope too :D.
     
  27. Shamile

    Shamile F1 Veteran

    Dec 31, 2002
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    Dear Ferraristi,

    I feel pretty and giddy like a little schoolgirl with new panties !

    Ummm.....too much information.

    "cough, cough" ( clearing throat )

    (deep manly voice ) yeah...got it done....yeah....

    Naw.....

    I feel pretty !!!

    I'm so pleased. I got it back into gear and the linkage is hooked back up with the new Delrin bushings. I couldn't have done it without the back and forth pmails with Tom Tbakowsky...a Ferrari/Lamborghini Tech from Canada.

    Tom went over with me detail by detail of what I was doing and what I should be feeling for.

    What I was feeling was the input rod going around the R/1 and 4/5 fork. I would end up behind the 2/3 fork but the feel just wasn't right. I could pull back and feel it tap but pushing forward,( towards engine ) it would just sink in....no resistance.

    What Tom said to do was align the input shaft straight up and center. Push back and feel the 2/3 fork. Now turn to the left R/1 fork or to the right 4/5 fork and before you feel those 2 forks, feel for the in between and with pressure it should slide back and click in and lock back into the notch of the 2/3 fork. The key was putting pressure while turning sideways slightly and "click"

    After that, I adjusted the turnbuckle and got the fore/aft adjustment. The side to side is the current trick I'm working on. What I've done so far is to put the shifter back in the 2nd gear slot. I tightened the upper nut on the turnbuckle so where the selector is equally spaced in the 2nd gear slot. I then ran (engine off ) the selector through the gears. What I found was ease on moving the selector towards the R/1 slot but resistance towards the 4/5 slot. I undid the turnbuckle at the shifter side. With a wrench I held the turnbuckle ( locked nut to the engine input side ) and put some bias towards the 4/5 side then re tightened. Now the selector has equal pressure side to side.

    Starting the engine and running through the gears....well, that's another story. Still working on that.

    But....I got it back in gear....silly problem solved....so now I'm...ah...er...back to where I started. :D


    Shamile

    Freeze...Miami Vice !
     
  28. Shamile

    Shamile F1 Veteran

    Dec 31, 2002
    6,563
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    Dear Ferraristi,

    ....well the excitement wore off pretty fast.


    new questions, new issues,

    ....new thread. :)


    Shamile

    Freeze...Miami Vice !
     

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