All That Work For Nothing...Well, Sort of.

Dear Ferraristi,

Well after cleaning the Lamborghini to death and trying to avoid looking at the Ferrari, I decided to get back onto it. As mentioned in another thread, I got the turnbuckle adjustment done....with great help from Dr. Ferrari.


Since I still can't get the car to shift gears while the engine is running ( many posts mentioning the clutch is not releasing ) I went back to where a porn star has had everyone gone before. I pulled the everything down to except removing the flywheel. I couldn't find anything foreign or broken off in the clutch hanging it up. I was actually hoping for something broken as that would tell me what's wrong. Well, all the pieces look fine....hmmm.

One thing I did notice....

the fingers on the pressure plate were badly worn. The area where the TO bearing rides was worn down to half the thickness of the metal. Could this have anything to do with not allowing the clutch to disengage? The fingers are not bent and are all aligned together.

Remember....my first issue was the clutch seals leaking not allowing pressure to push the clutch open. My new seals show absolutely no sign of leaking....many tests in the garage would have exposed leaking in the bell housing by now.

Would the worn fingers only give up now?

Perhaps I just didn't have the spacers right?

OK, but when I did my first test drive....it all worked just fine....all gears just went away near the finish of my drive.

....that's where I am.

....but my new CV boots look good !



Shamile

Freeze...Miami Vice !

 

Dear Ferraristi,

Uzz,

Thanks for your pix. My pressure plate fingers look just like yours. I don't have a binding problem as I cleaned all the disks and lubricated the shaft spline with sly glide. Before my shift issues, I didn't have any slipping and everything shifted fine. I did have a degrading shift issue of 2nd and 4th. But 1, 3, 5 & R were just fine. I attribute the loss of 2 & 4 to the silent bloc. I just replaced them and boy oh boy, was the engine side a wasted piece of metal with some scrap rubber left.

What I still can't understand is that during the first test drive, the shifting was fine. By the end of the drive all gears went away and barely got home in third.

What I have now is the car will shift smooth engine off. With the engine running while wheels spinning freely ( car on jack stands ) the gear lever slides in and can shift all gears. Clutch in, foot on brake ( rear wheels stopped ) no shifting to any gear. YET....I can have the car in gear, clutch in, foot on brake and NO lugging or lowering rpms....ie, the engine does not feel the clutch dragging.

I even replaced the clutch master cylinder and bled the line to death. Still no go. Well the bell housing is back off and I'll look further into the clutch pieces.

Boy, It's a good thing I really love this car or else !


Shamile

Freeze...Miami Vice !

 

Dear Ferraristi,

First, I have to say a big thanks to Dr. Ferrari ( Jim McGee of Pocono Sportscar in PA ). He has spend his valuable time with me in a few phone calls helping me with my shifting issues.

....can't say the same about the service dept. at my local F pimp...where I have no choice to spend my money.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, ( no, not the Lambo doors/panties thing ) I wish I had a F-chatter independent shop around me!

Remember the "engine running/ no shift " .....well, it really turns out that the clutch is dragging......yes, yes....you were all correct....and you told me so.

Well, this is what Dr. Ferrari explained. Even though, I could have the car on the ground, in gear, clutch in, car NOT MOVING and brakes off, there was just enough drag to keep the input shaft rotating and making it impossible to put the car into gear. The drag is so slight, it won't make the rpm drop at idle and no lugging sound.

Dr. Ferrari stated that even the slightest amount of rotation in the input shaft will make it impossible to shift. When you depress the clutch normally, everything comes to an absolute halt and you shift the gear. I couldn't figure that out because the car wouldn't move in gear/ clutch in.

....now I get it.

Sooooo,what's the issue?

I emailed Dr. Ferrari a bunch of photos showing how I put the clutch pac together and the positioning of the spacers. All was in correct position. When he saw the picture of my pressure plate and it's worn fingers ( like uzz scorer ) he said that's the issue. What's happening is that, even though the fingers aren't bent or deflected, when the TO bearing pressure is applied, the fingers probably deflect at the wear point and the force is not fully transfered to the plate to release.

He also specified that you CANNOT just get a new or rebuilt pressure plate. The whole clutch pac is weighted and balanced as a unit.

I need a new clutch.

He recommends I get a new one. I have heard good things about clutch masters and my local F pimp gets clutches rebuilt by Spec in Alabama. I'll go rebuilt. Unless y'all say this is a no-no for a twin plate clutch.

This is such a shame as the discs have so much surface that the groves in the surface material are fully intact and no slipping. Remember, I always shift gears at redline.

The thing is that I never had a problem with it before I took everything apart for the slave seal leak. Bad coincidence it seems. Dr. Ferrari stated that if it was put together wrong, I wouldn't have been able to get out of the garage. It just finally went away on the last leg of my test drive.

....sunny side up is that it's not something major like an internal gearbox issue.


Shamile

Freeze....Miami Vice !

 

Dear Ferraristi,

Sure.....rub it in.

Glad to see your TR is back on the road. I'm still waiting for a quote from Spec. They want some pix as their price does not include rebuilding the pressure plate fingers.

....my main problem.

As I said, clutch masters is quoting about $1000,00 for the rebuild....can't remember is pressure plate fingers rebuild was included.

Seems, yours came out to be around the same price...yes?


Shamile

Freeze...Miami Vice !

 

Dear Ferraristi,

Small update.

I decided to go with clutch masters in California. I send them my clutch and they will redo the whole thing for $1000.00 I kept waiting on Spec and they would only quote a solid price on seeing the clutch. The "fingers" replacement would be considered an extra cost by Spec. Clutch Masters will do everything including the fingers for a grand.

Well....we'll see how it turns out.


Shamile

Freeze....Miami Vice !

 

Dear Ferraristi,

Whow there......not so fast.

My spacers were in the correct position. I verified it by rotating the clutch before I pulled the bellhousing....again.

When I sent the clutch to Clutch masters, they put it on their bench and tested it for me....just to verify that it is the clutch hanging up and not something else in the gearbox. They said it was indeed hanging up. They did say the spacers were in the correct position though.

What they say was happening was that the intermediate plate spring tabs were pushing backwards on to pressure plate. This was causing the gearbox to still keep turning and with that back pressure put extreme wear into the fingers.

Their conclusion was the intermediate plate spring tabs.

Honestly, I don't see how the intermediate plate spring tabs can push back....but that's what they said. They just called me yesterday to tell me it was done....so I haven't received it yet.

Even though my journey has been a very long one and still not complete....I wouldn't do it any other way. I have learned quite a bit and that's why I have the car....a technical puzzle to solve.

Yeah yeah....I know, all the experienced techs have been having a good laugh but that's OK.....I never did say I knew what I was doing.


Shamile

Freeze...Miami Vice !

 

Dear Ferraristi,


Awwww.....shucks guys.

Such great support and "panties" in the same thread....can't beat that.

My white linen suit kinda feels a little warmer and kinda fuzzy....oops, crap....it's not supposed to go in the dryer !!

....well, I keep telling myself that. If you're ever in FL Uzz, come by and we'll swap clutch horror stories.

Bawhahahaha ! Not dirty panties.....dirty girls with clean panties...and they have to be....

you guessed it, tall thin blonde !! ( That's what I keep the dash switch in the VT Roadster switched to )

....I like the word panties too.....I really really do.

...especially if you add the words....delicate....lacy....skimpy.

Hey Jim !

....as long as I have my spacers correct !


Well, clutch masters just sent out the whole unit yesterday. I should be getting it in about 5 days. Calif. is a very long way from here....especially with about 50lbs of clutch and flywheel.

I spoke to Lonnie at clutch masters, great knowledgeable guy by the way....again confirmed that my clutch was hanging up and still turning the gearbox. He said again, it was definitely the spring tabs on the intermediate plate pushing back onto the pressure plate and turning the clutch. Again, he said that is why my pressure plate fingers were so worn down....just like the photos from Uzz.

They did bench test it again after all the work was done and it is working fine. He said to just bolt the thing up and go.

In the mean time, I've found an oil leak in the bell housing not from the RMS. but from an upper cross bolt. I've been corresponding with Rifledriver and he says to torque it down, you need a special Ferrari tool.....figures.

Sooooo....even when I get the clutch back, I'm now fighting this slight leak. Because I pulled the super clean bell housing off again after all the testing, I could see where glistening surface of oil was coming from.

Oh yeah....to add insult....I snapped the clutch rod actuator in my Lamborghini on Sunday morning.

....on my way out to a private Ferrari function no less. This was the Ferrari gathering at Bill Hensler's Home with the F pimp bringing the new Calif. for us to test drive.....yeah, it does bite big some times.

I think the tall thin blonde would be a consolidation prize right now.

Well....clutch is on it's way for the Ferrari.....new actuator rod and master cylinder on it's way for the Lamborghini...

...in the mean time.....

...a big F250 4x4.....yeich...

....I guess I'll be popular with the fat county girls in their granny panties.

...oh the humanity!


Shamile

Freeze...Miami Vice !

 

Dear Ferraristi,


Well, before I could put the new clutch in, I had to solve the oil leak problem.

Even thought I put a new RMS in, I still had an oil leak....verified with all the "on the jack stands" testing.

What it turned out to be was oil wicking it's way up the case bolts above and below the crank. With the help of Rifledriver, he suggested that I use Loctite 518 to seal the bolt.

Loctite 518 is an areobic sealant....meaning, it dries with the absence of oxygen. So where the nut and washer comes down to the case surface.....dry.

It took awhile to research this item as I had seen some threads comparing it to "Hondabond" on the Lambo boards. 518 + the PRIMER was the way to go.

I then had to get a wrench in the tight confines of the casting. Ferrari uses a special tool and I couldn't even buy one.

I took a standard spanner, fabricated a special holder with a welded socket to attach to my torque wrench. New calculations were made to compensate for the new distance from the torque wrench head to the new ring spanner center point.

Well....it fit, got it torqued down and could move on. Did it work...no leaks?

....time will tell.

I could now move on.....

Next, I put the newly rebuilt clutch back in. I must say Clutch Masters really did a great job. All surfaces nice and shiney....except the discs (Kevlar) of course

I put the flywheel back with...again....new flywheel bolts. Remember these are ONE TIME USE ONLY bolts.....doing this the second time now.

I then proceeded to bolt the clutchpack up while taking real care to make sure everything went in the correct position. Yes VEGAS, my spacers were in the correct position.

On the intermediate plate, you have to be careful. You have to swing out the metal tabs to expose the guide pins so you can put back these silly little cir-clips. Each guide pin uses 2 clips per pin (OEM ) but since 2 of mine were bad....and you CAN'T get them, I put one per each pin (Thanks for that invaluable help Fastradio & Uzz) and swung the metal tabs back into place and moved along.

The rest of the clutchpack went back smoothly.....yeah, ya get good if you have to do it a few times......and put back the pressure plate while keeping everything in place with my alignment tool.

Since the tool is not that precise, I did a rough alignment with the tool, slightly tightened down the pressure plate so the discs were a little firmed up. I then did a proper alignment with the bell housing itslelf......stronger arms now! I got it aligned, pulled bell housing, tightened up in sequence a bit more, put back bell housing....slides perfect....pulled again, tightened to spec and checked one more time with bellhousing....easy on....easy off....done.

OK, clutchpack is done and ready for the bellhousing...but wait....gotta do a Re/Re on the TO bearing.....


Shamile

Freeze....Miami Vice !

 

Dear Ferraristi,

From my Re/Re TO bearing thread.....



Update,

Got the old TO bearing off and the new one on.

I was most concerned about the outer edge flange where the "dust cap" seal sits. That edge of the TO casting is very thin.

After speaking with Fastradio at length, he said the "press fit" of the bearing is not that tight. He said I could do it on my press.

I decided to mimic the press contact areas with some aluminum spacers an a craftsman 3 ton bearing puller.

I took great care and with everyones advice, it went smooth....just like everyone said.

I used the 3 jaw puller with some aluminum to protect the bearing surfaces. Yes, I know it's the old bearing but I wanted to spread the force of the jaw over a greater surface area of the bearing. I didn't want to tear the old bearing then have to worry about getting the center of the "donut" off the slave cylinder casting without marring the bearing seating surface.

Pulled it off and did the reverse to put the new one on. With the new bearing, I used a full surface aluminum spacer to equalize force of the complete surface. The jaw themselves seated on another spacer under the slave cylinder casting....again to protect the thin casting wall where the seal sits.

Before I started cranking down the new bearing, make sure it is sitting absolutely flat. I sat everything on a surface-plate. Before I put the bearing on the slave casting, I put some gear oil on both surfaces ( good tip from Fastradio....use gear oil! ).

I then seated the bearing. To make sure it is absolutely true, I spun the bearing at eye level while my dad held a pair of dividers so I could see any dips and rises. Where it was high, I gave a slight tap with my rubber dead-blow hammer. A few taps later and all was aligned.

I then started to crank down the puller....slowly ! The bearing slowly began to move down the slave casting and seated nicely. I used a pin tool to see if the bearing was absolutely seated on the "step" on the casting....it was.

I then replaced all the seals....including the dust cap seal. Many have said to remove the dust cap seal as it dries, gets hard and makes the clutch pedal stick. The consensus seems to be to remove it if the car isn't driven that much. Since my car is a daily driver.....the seal went back.

All seals in and slide the slave cylinder on the bellhousing shaft....springs in place, guide pin bolted.....all done !

Time to put things back together......