Alonso`s days at McLaren are numbered

What he says to the press doesn't overshadow what he does in the car. He's still the best driver on the grid. It wouldn't be the first time Ferrari had to deal with a driver that spoke his mind. Mansell and Prost come to mind. By the way you have it wrong by the way. MS never PUBLICLY bad mouthed or pointed fingers at the team, what he did and said in private only they know. It's easy to not criticise the team when it's built around you.

 

We need to focus on the topic at here, which is does team order exist within teams or not, instead of citing specific incidents which IMO, clouds the topic as all circumstances and situations are different. If not, we will just be citing examples all day with no result, not that we will ever agree on this anyway, at least not from the looks of it.

Since we are back on the MS subject once again, we might as continue: MS is faster than his teammates 90% of the time at any point of the season, why shouldn't he have the #1 status on the team? Just like RD said to Prost about Senna, out drive him and then you will be #1 on the team again. Out of Schumacher's entire career, car trouble excluded, how many times have you seen MS not being on par with his teammate and was out driven by his teammate? 15, 10 or less? I can only think of a handfull, but I don't pretend to be a F1 historian. And which one of those occured in the start of the season? Just like AS, MS usually is leading his team's charge by at least the 5th or even 3rd race of the season without team order being implimented. In such case, any team would be foolish to not give MS or AS the #1 status on the team as they are the ONE driver that gives your team the greatest chance of winning. Believe me, RD and the rest of the world knew that, which is why he chose AS over AP.

Again, the incidents that RB was asked to obey team order, much like many others before them and after them, the titles has not yet been mathmatically won yet, regardless how far ahead they are. As much as the Senna fans does not want to believe, there is more in common between Senna and Schumacher then they think, and the same goes for the Schumacher fans who dislike Alonso (I am only talking about on the track, not off track behaviors). They are all equally competitive, equally ruthless, equally selfish and equally brilliant as a race driver, in their own era.

 

It also takes leadership and self control to not criticize your team openly when things are rough.

 

That's definitely true and you make a good point. It's been my experience, however, that in any relationship, either business or personal, a private argument is not nearly as bad as airing the dirty laundry for all to see and smell.

This is just my personal opinion, but I feel that Ferrari would be better served by just keeping Kimi, especially now that he has finally settled in and is showing his true speed. If he is very bad at developing a car as some have suggested (and I do think that is questionable), just bring in an experienced #2 like Heidfeld or someone else who is known for putting in the hours in testing and let Kimi fly with the results.

 

There in lies the problem. What constitutes team strategy and what constitutes team orders. It is not unusual to have drivers move over for one another in qualifiying. McLaren wanted LH to move over for FA so that FA could get the last hot lap in the session. LH freaked out because he wanted the last hot lap to be his. Now I don't know how it works at McLaren, they may be taking turns with that or working it out some other way or what have you. LH has had the last hot lap in qualifing sessions many a time that I can remember. LH would in all likelihood have been told before hand that they wanted FA to have the last lap. Again, we don't know for sure if LH was told before hand or not but it really doesn't even matter. For whatever reason LH refused to move over. Was having LH move over a team order or part of a team strategy? Now if i understand the rules right team orders are orders that affect the outcome of the race which are now banned. Qualifying is one thing the race is another. If LH had started 1st or 2nd he still would have had the chance to win, just as FA would have. Furthermore by letting Alonso through he would have still had to run a quicker lap to take the pole form LH. Again not really affecting the outcome. As far as i know team strategy is still allowed.

 

The way the whole affair has been handled has been wrong, on all sides. LH was wrong and FA was wrong. FA seems to be taking to brunt of the critisism because his actions were the more obvious. It's a bit unfair the way people blame Alonso and absolve Hamilton when the incident was precipitated by Hamilton. Had LH followed the team directive there would have been no incident. Alonso is the team leader. Hamilton is lucky that he is allowed to race his teammate.

 

It does but Alonso has a hot latin temperament and tends to say what he feels, like Senna did. MS on the other hand always thought deeply before he spoke to the press and never let his true emotions come through. He was always more conservative. Alonso seems to need to vent to the press. A bit of a shame really, we never got to really know MS.

 

You can't deny that history has shown many times that the Qualifying position can be the race itself. How many times have we seen mayhem at the first corner behind the P1 car after the standing start? and how many times have we seen a P2 car going backward by the end of lap 1 because he was trying to pass the P1 car but got squeezed by the cars behind him? In F1, qualifying means something, in fact, it can be the difference maker on how well a driver finishes or DNF all together. If the party involved here were Prost and Senna, would you still have agree that Senna should have moved over, even know Senna was leading in the championship? (Remember that Prost was already a WC and Senna was "only" a GP winner when he first got to McLaren-Honda)

Yes, this would not have happened had LH were to follow the McLaren TEAM ORDER and let FA pass.

We still don't really know who started it, someone (I apologize to the member for not remembering) had pointed out that Speed TV had reported that the whole incident started in the McLaren war room, BEFORE the qualifying sessions.

Wow, I didn't know you cared about MS so much Face it, these are out of this world celebraties we are talking about here, unless you know them on the personal bases, none of us will really know any of them. Go ahead and admit it, you know deep down inside, you like MS too

BTW, if you can take McLaren's press release on eveything that has happened this season, on both issues (Stepney-Counghlan and LH-FA) than why can't you and shouldn't you use the same logic and accept Ferrari's press release on that there is no #2 driver clause in the contracts signed by EI and RB.

 

Of course qualifying is vital. But it's still not the race..... How many times has a driver come from the back and still won? Hell Kimi came from dead last once and beat everyone. Senna was a GP winner but he was expected to fight Prost for the title. Everyone was aware of his talent, including Prost. Hamilton's speed was a shock to everyone. Alonso expected one situation at McLaren and got another.

Team order or strategy, LH still didn't listen. If the speed report was right, and i personally think that was just a theory, there is no way any of those guys can know for sure, it only makes the situation seem worse for LH. Now he would have gone back on a pre-planned strategy for which FA and RD have every right to get upset at him.

Yes these people are celebrites and we really don't know them, but we all know what Alonso thinks, right or wrong. It was the same with Senna. it's not the same with MS.

BTW Even if i don't like MS, which is a stretch, i didn't like his tactics or the way his butt was kissed by his teammates at Ferrari, doesn't mean i don't find him interesting and might want to know more about them.

And i don't buy the Ferrari press release on that subject because of eveidence to the contrary. (Austria 02) I mean "Rubens move over for the champion"? I would have told Todt to go **** himself in that situation. How can anyone believe that release when you hear that little radio exchange.

Ok Anthony, i'm off on my vacation, we'll continue this debate when i return, i'll check in from Miami if i can. Talk to you guys soon.

 

Not as often as some poor P2 guy gets taken out by someone from behind at the standing start, so take that with you on your vacation in Miami !! See what I mean about citing examples etc. this discussion will never end if we keep this up.

Maybe we will know someday, and maybe not.

That's just Michael's personality, love him or hate him but it is unfair to fault or judge him because of it.

I don't know...... I think Luis' armor is finally cracking a little bit here now. Did I just see a smile there in the post somewhere?! You LIKE Schumacher, just say it. You can do it Luis, we promise that we won't tell anyone else. *LOL*

If you did, then you will be just like LH and you will then be held up in your own garage for an extra 10 sec. on your next work day as punishment.

Exchanging posts with you actually made me realiz how much I truly miss and admire Senna and Schumacher. It has been fun, my friend. Have a safe and great time in Miami.

 

Have a great trip Luis.

 

Your argument is a non sequitor. Since MS had the ability to handpick his teammates, he virtually assured himself of never having anyone faster than him in the car. He was not #1 because he outpaced his teammates, he outpaced his teammates because he had #1 status (and veto power).

Who were his teammates? Jos Verstappen? Andrea de Cesaris? Johnny Herbert? Martin Brundle? Eddie Irvine? Rubens? Massa? It is easy to outpace your teammate when you restrict yourself to running against midfield runners at best. Had he teamed with Mika or Senna or Kimi or even Alonso, it is debatable whether he would have maintained that same record. We'll never know as MS himself ducked competition in equal cars.

 

Mika: I asked you before at least once I think, where do you rank DC as a driver? do you honestly think he is on par with MH? As for the rumor that MH was coming to Ferrari but MS veto it, is there any proof of this? MH was a McLaren driver through and through, I don't believe for a second that he would ever be in Ferrari red.

Senna: Minus Prost, which of his teammate do you consider to be his equal? Andretti or Berger?

Kimi: He may be fast, but the fact is that he can not and should not be mentioned in the same breath as Mika or Alonso just yet, and don't even try to compare him to the likes of Senna or Schumacher. And we will never know if he can match Schumacher or not, so it is pointless to speculate on this.

Alonso: I am not a F1 historian, please remind me which of his teammate, minus LH right now, is a match for him so far.

Also, IIRC, both Senna and Alonso also enjoyed the #1 status within the team. In Senna's case, he did have to wrest it away from Prost, but neverless, he was not shy about wanting that status within the team.

History does not lie, all of the drivers you mentioned were superior to their teammates, with exception of the Senna-Prost duel and "maybe" the LH-FA duel. And as you can see, they were and are all best buddies and works extremly well together as their teams never knew such harmony within, right?

 

I don't consider any driver his equal, including Prost or Schumacher.

I would point out, however, that Senna partnered three WDCs, Prost, Hill and Hakkinan. He didn't duck having a competitive driver in the other seat, in fact he offered to drive alongside Prost at Williams for free.

Schumacher, on the other hand, drove alongside Piquet for a handful of races when he joined Benetton. After that he handpicked his teammate to ensure that the other driver was no threat to him. He actively resisted LdM's attempts to sign Mika (this is documented in a couple of F1 journals) and he retired rather than drive alongside Kimi.

 

No, but he did win 13 GPs. He is a solid #2 driver, perhaps one of the better in F1 history.

Mika drove alongside Senna, by the way...

I never did compare him to Senna or Schumacher, did I? He is not yet a 2x WDC but I believe he will be by the time he retires. I think he is definitely as competent a driver as Mika or Alonso.

He had a tough time with Jarno Trulli during their days together at Renault. He was Alonso's biggest challenge prior to Hamilton.

It is not a question of being best buddies or relative superiority, the point is whether any of them refused to drive alongside a fellow top-level driver. Thus far, none of the drivers you mentioned shied away from competition. But Schumacher did. That is the point.

Oh, and by the way, I recognize that you are not an F1 historian, as you mentioned, but the Prost/Senna pairing resulted in 2 WDCs, 2 WCCs, 25 wins and 30 poles in 32 races. That is pretty successful by any definition, yes?

 

Your position on Senna is well know and well publicized.

I respectfully askes you one more time, minus Prost, which one do you consider to be Senna's equal at the time when they were teammates? I can't think of any, can you? And IIRC, DH was not on equal status as Senna at Williams in 1994. As for his offer to drive along side Prost at Williams in 1993, this has already been discussed before in another thread that you also participated and followed, so we will just leave it at that.

There are a lot of things that are "documented" in F1 journals, including this whole spy fiasical that is happening now. IIRC, you certain are not one that believes everything you have read, in fact, you are an advocate of of that belief. And judging from previous history and what is happening today at McLaren, I again stand by my previous statement and say that even if it is true that Schumacher did veto that notion, I do not blame or fault him for his belief of the need of having ONE well defined team leader.

 

Well, I guess that ends the DC arguement there, doesn't it? In ten years, DC will be an also ran and a footnote in F1 history for most people. And as for Mika, at what stage of Mika's career and at what stage of Senna's career where they teammates? For someone that knows F1 so well, I am surprised that you would actually try to make a comparison out of this.

No? This statement made by you: "Had he teamed with Mika or Senna or Kimi or even Alonso, it is debatable whether he would have maintained that same record. We'll never know as MS himself ducked competition in equal cars." implies that Kimi belongs to at least the same group as Mika or Alonso and that Schumacher was "afraid" of having him as a teammate as he should with Senna, Mika and Alonso. Your words, not mine.

And even know I am a Kimi fan, I am still not sure if he will be a title holder even once. We will just have to wait and see.

Tough time with Trulli? We must have not been watching the same F1 races and seasons then. First of all, Jarno is already a veteran driver as oppose to Alonso, who was still very young in his career. Second, how often does Jarno qualified and scores more points than Alonso once Alonso matures and really establishes himself as a F1 driver. And finally, where do you rank Trulli as a driver?

Schumacher does what he believes is right, just like you have your own beliefs. So far that belief have yielded him 7 drives titles and the team 7 constructer titles, and let's not even talk about how many wins & poles he had in his career. So I can hardly blame him for his logic behind it and by your own logic, you also can't deny those facts either.

As for McLaren, by stats they were very successful in those years, and we all know how much you "love" stats, but we all know that there were plenty of other factors involved at that time, don't we? And the "success" from that pairing also torn the team apart very quickly and easily which also ended rather unpleasantly for all parties involved. The only reason that they were able to enjoy that success is because of the shear talent of both Prost and Senna, and the mighty Honda engine.

 

That Schumacher retired rather than drive alongside Kimi has been widely discussed by F1 journalists who I would wager know a lot more about what is going on behind the scenes than either of us.

I think you are missing the point here. It is not that each and every teammate of Prost, Senna or Mika is a world-beater, it is that each of them drove alongside the best drivers of their time, unlike Schumnacher. Schumacher NEVER drove alongside the most competitive drivers. Never.

When push came to shove and he was left with the choice of either accepting Kimi as a teammate or retire...well, we know what he chose, don't we?

I have no idea what you are saying here. The success of the team is due to Honda and the skill of the drivers? Is this some kind of revelation? That is like me saying the only reason Ferrari won the last few years is because of the car and Schumacher. Wow. Stunning insight. "Hey, the only reason your team won the Super Bowl is because they are better than the other team..."

As far as McLaren being torn apart...correct me if I am wrong but did they not go on to win 2 of the next 3 championships folllowing Prost' departure?

 

HAHAHAHAHAH that's funny, gossip is no better than conjecture

 

According to you, I guess a driver is not allow to retire and can only get out of F1 racing either by being injured badly or die on the track. God forbeit if they should ever decide to retire, than it must be because they were afraid of the competition from other drivers. Did Schumacher actually tell you that he retired because he was afraid of having Kimi as his teammate? And how many of these "journalists" are Schumacher's closes friends or relatives that knows for certiain why he retired from F1? IMHO and from what I have read, he saw himself getting older, making more mistakes, and being the perfectionist that he is, he finds it unacceptable and unable to race at "HIS" top form anymore, and most of all, he does not want to be like Senna at Imola, someone who he admires greatly of. Think about it, Schumacher has a wife, kids and family as oppose to Senna, who does not have a family of his own to worry about. That alone, is more than enough reason for a F1 racer to retire. Is this really that hard and unreasonable to understand?! Anyone with kids and who are a responsible parent will understand this and know perfectly well what I am talking about.

If you had really read any of my previous posts and the most recent ones, and most of all, actually keep an open mind about the various F1 drivers of the past and present, than you would have no problem understanding my point at all. My point is, the "success" McLaren enjoyed in the late 80's is due to lack of competitive packages from other F1 teams. Prost and Senna, with the package they had, did not need each other to win their titles, their talent along is enough to ensure their competitiveness as they were the two best drivers of their era (Yes, we ALREADY know that you don't think Prost is as good as your beloved Aryton Senna). RD wanted a super team, which he was only able have for no more than two years while the bickering within the team, had started way before Prost's departure in '89. Had Prost stayed, the bickering would have continued and that just may have been enough to prevent your hero, Senna from winning his other two titles in 90 and 91, much the same way that Piquet-Mansell lost out to Prost in 1986(?). In other words, you may now be known as Senna1xWC or Senna2xWC instead of Senna3xWC. [In most recent history, teammates with "equal" status on the team have yield 3 titles (Piquet-'87, Prost-'89 and Senna-'88) as oppose to all of the other titles, which all have been won by teams with well defined #1 and #2 drivers. Yes or no?]

 

His kids were not born the day before he decided to retire. How old are they? Six? Seven? Why didn't he retire years before if your argument is true? He was absolutely competitive and unlucky not to win an 8th title his last year, and for someone who wants to spend time with his family, he sure seems to attend a lot of functions and GP weekends without them.

I will listen to journalists who are far better placed to report on what is happening behind the scense than the musings of the "experts" on these boards.



Speaking of which, see if you can spot the cognitive dissonance:

 

Wow, I can't believe you are actually trying to make an arguement out of this. May I ask you how old you are and if you have kids or a family of your own? Try and understand that what we are talking about here is way beyond F1 racing, this is about LIFE. MS may have been a F1 driver, but keep in mind, that is a career choice and not a moral obligation. He is a human being first and foremost, just like anyone of us here.

Try and think back a little if you can, it is also a good idea for you to actually keep track of what you are posting here, it will be more effective when it comes to validating your posts and points here. Anyway, it was you and your posts that disputed what has been said in the media "SELECTIVELY". It was you who took what you read and re-cited them on here as if they were FACTS and not OPINIONS being expressed by you. Don't agree with me, just go back to your own posts from any of the forum and see how many and how often you use a "" icon, among other things.

I guess, once again, you just so happen to miss that little "IMHO" at the start of the second quote from me. Most of us here read up on what we can and then make up our opinions about a topic at hand. We keep an open mind on the opinions being expressed here and while we may not agree with them, we at least respect the members and their opinions.

 

I am 44 years old and yes, I have a family of my own. That has nothing whatsoever to do with this discussion.

What the point is is that Schumacher had a wife and kids for several seasons before retiring. I simply do not believe for one second that Schumacher suddenly woke up one day and decided to quit for the sake of his family. I saw his retirement speech and that was simply not the look, not the words, and not the body language of a man leaving the sport willingly. I think this argument that he put his family first is nonsense, I think it is a smokescreen to excuse the true reasons for his retirement, his unwillingness to partner Kimi.

You have your opinion and I have mine.

You have got to be kidding.

Take a look at the myriad of threads on the McLaren affair and then come back to me about opinions being represented as facts. And then take a look at the ostriches here who have their heads in the sand and then come back to me about open minded individuals.

I read up on what I can on MS retirement and made up my mind, just as you have with yours. You must have missed the first part of my post where I pointed out the statements regarding Schumacher's retirement where made by journalists who are a hell of a lot closer to the facts than either of us are. You have your articles and I have mine.

 

In that case, I can only say that I am extremly surprised, that you find it so hard to understand how family can play a large part in MS' decision to retire. I guess we not only differ in our opinons, but also in the fundamentals of what family values are. I can only tell you that there is not one morning I don't leave leave my house for work without feeling a little quilty, and there is not a night that as I sit in traffic on the way home that I wonder what I have missed, and my son just turned 2 a month ago. And I suspect that many others here shares and understands perfectly of what I am referring to.

Allow me to ask you one more question about yourself here, what do you do for a living, and if you are now retired, what did you used to do? I think it is safe to say that you are not in the field of public official or servant since IIRC, in another thread that you participated, you were putting down another member on this forum (I think it was member 355 from Toronto, who is a firefighter) and stated that no "public servant" can afford a Ferrari, right? Which by the way, in case you are not aware of it, it is a pretty lame attitude and a extremly poor thing to say regarless if it was done in private or in public. Anyway, you can't denied that being a F1 driver is a full time job, that leaves very little time for family life. It is extremly demanding and dangerous, unlike "most" of our jobs, any decision made in that fraction of a second during testing or a race weekend can be the difference in life or death. These drivers are not Gods among us, but mere mortals with flush and blood just like you and I. They too can get hurt and killed, just like your hero, the great late Aryton Senna at Imola in 1994. And surely you must understand the differences in being an active F1 driver as oppose to attending functions and events on Ferrari's behave. If you still can't understand any of this, then there is truely nothing left for us to talk about here.

Looks like the selective memory is back again, let's do this one more time:

1) You stated that Schumacher was afraid of competition from KR thus his decision to retire from F1 and citing the media as your source for this. You cited them as "FACTS", not as opinions or POVs.

2) In responding to your post, I purposed that there is more to his retirement than we know. From what I have read and IMO, his family played a large part in his decision as well. I offer you another POV and other possibilities to what may have happened, based on what I have read and believe as opinions, not "FACTS" as YOU did. I do not selectively and believe automatically what was said in the media, as I try to take them all in and digest them to form my own opinion on any given issue or topic. I re-cited what I have read and OFFERS to you and other members here as other possibilities, as oppose to your stand on this topic, which is that whatever you have read are "FACTS", not just as opinions or speculations.

One thing is for sure, we now both agrees that we have a difference in opinions here, and I am glad, and thank you for admitting to the fact that these are your opinions and not facts in your last post. IMO, and FWIW, judging from previous history, it is a great leap for you to do so and as a fellow forum member here, I appreciate it.

PS: We have gotten way off track with our posts here, I think it is safe to say that we need to stop HJ this thread.

 

from what i know, MS made it pretty clear to JT that he wanted to retire at the end of the season. he then wanted to break the news to the world at the USGP last yr, but Luca was having none of those, and wanted him to announce it at the Italian GP.

family wise, i think MS was thinking alot about that for years. yes, he did have his 1st child in 96? ( i stand corrected here ), but, we all knew MS was born for racing, and that passion was burning in his veins. i really assume, that he thought about this long and hard that he's a racer, safety has improved, and i think he won't let family get into the way for him to be th best.

but lately, or rather, at the end of his career, he just had been making so much of mistakes. i remember last season, Jackie Stewart asked Schumi to retire, because he was making so much of mistakes, mistakes he didn't make in the past. Jackie pointed out that back during his days, 1 mistake like that and a minimum of a broken leg was to be expected.

Schumi also mentioned that he'd hang up his helmet the day someone younger, faster, comes about and beat him, which in this case i assume, is Fred he was mentioning.

People were asking his when he was gonna retire since 2001. well, yea, he didn't seem happy at Monza when he announced that, even JT. but i think, the real truth behind the scenes will be out, in few years time.