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Am I right about this?

Discussion in '206/246' started by Pantdino, Nov 17, 2007.

  1. Pantdino

    Pantdino Formula 3

    Jan 13, 2004
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    Jim
    Am I incorrect in this thinking regarding a Euro-spec 246GT?

    1) People in the US seem to think a US-spec GTS is the thing to have. GT's are looked down upon, and a Euro-spec car is regarded with suspicion. They don't have all that neat smog gear, so they are worth less.

    2) People in Europe appreciate the GT at least as much as the GTS and appreciate a Euro-spec car because it doesn't have the smog gear and US-mandated large sidelights and rear reflectors.

    3) The US dollar has depreciated over 10% against the Euro since January.

    4) Shipping a car from Europe to the US is expensive, but US to Europe is cheap.

    So if one were selling a Euro-spec GT at this time, an overseas buyer would likely pay more for it than a US buyer.

    Therefore, the only purpose of advertising it in this country at all would be to bring it to the attention of overseas buyers.

    Any errors in my thinking?

    Jim
     
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  3. tx246

    tx246 F1 Veteran
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    i wouldn't us buyers look down upon a euro spec car. the euro spec has more power and you don't see any price differences between the two when advertised openly.
     
  4. 4redno

    4redno Formula 3
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    Why would US buyers look down upon a Euro car? There are lots of Euro GT cars in the US and I would pay as much (or more) for one given their looks and lack of smog equipment.

    That being said, advertising any Dino overseas now makes sense. The currency benefit will offset some of the buyer's shipping costs.

    My $0.02.
     
  5. Pantdino

    Pantdino Formula 3

    Jan 13, 2004
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    Jim
    This are reassuring opinions. It's just that it seems the vast majority of cars I've seen advertised in this country for the last year have been GTS. There are 5 of them on Hemmings.com now, and no GTs. The conclusion I drew was that most of the GTs have been exported.

    On another topic, I just took my car for a spin and a 360 Modena accelerated down the local road just as I was turning around at a side street. So I got to compare engine notes (well, at least hear his from the outside and mine from the inside.) I like mine better. His car sounds like an F1 car to me, and I prefer a more vintage sound.

    Jim
     
  6. tx246

    tx246 F1 Veteran
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    keep in mind that dino's weren't "officially" imported into the us until 1972. at that point, the gts was in high gear and the gt was a couple of years old. typically, american's have preferred the open cars versus the coupes. i have both a gt and a gts. i prefer the gts as i fit better in it, in terms of head room. that being said, and the fact the numbers say that the gt is twice as common as the gts, i think the usa skews the values. i honestly think there are more gts's in the us than gt's. why? simple, there are more gts's advertised at any given time than gt's.
     
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  8. ENZOSON

    ENZOSON Formula Junior
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    Jim regarding observation 2) -

    I think US cars are in great demand in Europe due to the increasing Emissions restrictions- It seems to be an issue in Italy where older cars are being slowly removed from the roads as the EU is pressuring the member countries to comply with strict(er) emission laws.

    I have a Euro '71. I would not trade it for anything in the World (for other reasons) but also for the fact that it is soooo much easier to work on... Look at Omigon's decision to convert...

    Cheers

    Pietro
     
  9. Pantdino

    Pantdino Formula 3

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    Did / do US models pass emissions tests in this country? I remember discussing this issue with someone who had just rebuilt the engine in his 365 GTC and found that it didn't come close to passing the biannual exam we have here in California. His guess was that when the cars were new Ferrari cooked up a special engine to pass emissions with that particular car, but that even when new the cars customers bought would not pass

    I can't imagine even a US car would pass any emissions test designed for modern cars. Or am I wrong?

    Jim
     
  10. 4redno

    4redno Formula 3
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    Are there any states left in the USA which require emission testing on a Dino?

    When I first bought my car in 1996, in order to pass emissions, I had to show a bill for at least $100 from a mechanic who tried to tune the car, then pay for and fail the EPA test twice to get a special exemption pass. It was such a racket. The one time we actually got the car to pass based on its tuning, it ran so badly, I had to spend hours to undo the work and get the carbs set up properly the way Enzo meant it to run. Now my car is permanently exempt in WA because of its age (1969).

    Interesting POV on why the GTS is more popular here. I just figured it was a cultural/climate thing.

    I imprinted on an Dino 246 GT early in my youth and so that's my excuse. With the exception of cars that were designed and available exclusively as spiders, I'm usually partial to the GT vs GTS/spider.
     
  11. tx246

    tx246 F1 Veteran
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    i agree about the lines of the gt being nicer, the gts simply looks forced in the roof area,
     
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  13. dm_n_stuff

    dm_n_stuff Global Moderator
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    Dec 10, 2003
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    US cars have A/C (well, you can call it that) and power windows (again, a small wink here) and a little less HP, I can't think of any that still have WORKING smog stuff on them, although I guess you could rebuild it, and risk your valves if you really wanted to..

    For sure selling a car in Europe will fetch you more money than the US market right now. And I don't think it being a US spec car makes a lick of difference in the price over there.

    DM
     
  14. modmaki

    modmaki Formula 3

    Sep 11, 2006
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    i was thinking of selling my car.i spoke to mike sheehan and he thinks us spec gts gets more..for the air...mine is euro with no air or any smog emmisions...my thought was becouse mine was euro spec,and therefore more hourse power that would fetch more dough...whos right here......MO
     
  15. tx246

    tx246 F1 Veteran
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    i don't think us vs. euro comes that much into play. however, windows and air (even though the a/c system is horrible) does. the a/c can be updated. i know of at least one dino, that looks bone stock, including the engine compartment, that has a modern a/c system. it is awesome, actual COLD air when turned on. it cost about $3k, but the results are worth it.

    when considering either us or euro spec, one must consider how many dino's are on the market at any given time. i don't think a euro car will bring a premium, unless someone is deadset on the euro car.

    i have a 73 euro spec gts with both power windows and a/c. the euro vs. us spec arguement has never even come up.
     
  16. tx246

    tx246 F1 Veteran
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    dave,

    i have a car with working smog equipment, not much of a problem, but then again, i haven't had reason to rip it out.

    power windos and a/c weren't just us spec options, they were also euro options. my 73 euro spec gts has both. i think the options bring the premium, not the "spec" - evenb though the euro car is faster
     
  17. need4speed

    need4speed Formula 3

    Nov 3, 2003
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    WS,

    Don't want to hijack this thread so feel free to PM me. Do you have any specific info on the A/C system you mentioned above? Who did the work? How long ago? Contact number?

    Thanks,

    Manny
     
  18. MRONY

    MRONY Formula Junior

    Mar 17, 2007
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    I echo the sentiment that GTS' are worth more because fewer were made. Also, since most of Europe and the US (other than you people who put up with fire, drought, mudslides, earthquakes, killer bees and Nancy Pelosi to enjoy the climate in California) have snow and ice in the winter, the Dino isn't really the greatest winter car or a track animal, and summer cars should have open tops.

    Personally, the US car with the flares makes a line that I prefer -- it gives the car a little edge to go with the sinuous sinewy curves. With the roof on, it's a complete aesthetic too. I was willing to pay a premium for a US GTS because to me it is the ultimate expression of the Dino -- maybe not the "purest" -- and makes it a car that I actually dream about. As for the hp pickup for a Euro car, what is the real difference between two perfectly-tuned cars with the smog equipment removed? Is it measurable??

    Finally, despite the supposed hatred for America everywhere in the world, Europeans still have a fascination for things American, and a US Ferrari kinda covers all the bases!
     
  19. need4speed

    need4speed Formula 3

    Nov 3, 2003
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    I can't comment about the smog vs non-smog performance as I've only driven my car at any one time. But the thing I love about the Euro cars are the marker lights. They were designed to be on the gorgeous shape of our Dinos. The US version was a hideous afterthought. Parts raided from the corporate Fiat parts bin. That's why I removed my US side markers and switched to the flush front markers.
     
  20. tx246

    tx246 F1 Veteran
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    manny,

    it was done by a local shop here in houston. i don't think they have any specialised skills other than the experience of working on a/c's and the patience to take the time to do it. i'll try to find out the name of then shop. living in houston, i have really consider having the system put in, but don't drive the car enough to justify it, and besides, i love sweating my a** off
     
  21. 4redno

    4redno Formula 3
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    I agree with you need4speed. The Euro marker lights are just so understated and look flush with the body lines. In addition to adding lights to the Dino where they were never designed to be (rear quarter panels) the US marker lights just seem chunky and out of place. Of course, to each their own - I know you US Dino guys are every bit as crazy about your cars so I mean no disrespect.

    ...Keith
     
  22. rwk360

    rwk360 Formula Junior

    Aug 26, 2005
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    Similar BS in NV- any car older than 1970 must pass smog to register. If it cannot be made to pass, it can be registered for one year only after showing receipts from a smog facility totalling a min of $200 verifying that you attempted to make it pass. The following year you must go through the same nonsense. After a (surprise) complete engine rebuild shortly after I puchased my car in '01, we were able to get it to pass (barely) (69 L series which never had smog s___) I registered as a Classic Vehicle, meaning I never need to smog it again as long as I log no more than 3K mi/yr. I believe CA had until recently a "rolling" year exemption from smog, but I think it's now a line in the sand for cars older than 1975 or so. BTW, though it may be worth less than a GTS in the eyes of (primarily the US ) market, I love the cleaner lines of the GT (I'm biased obviously). Also with a GT there is no "scuttle shake", and I need not worry my head about a leaking roof, nonworking/failing power windows, radios, A/C, etc.
     
  23. dinogts

    dinogts Formula 3
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    I'd be willing to exchange my nice GTS for an equally nice GT - if there was enough of price differential between the two.
     
  24. Pantdino

    Pantdino Formula 3

    Jan 13, 2004
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    If this were so American cars of all types would be getting shipped to Europe by the boatload. This is not the case.

    It's more likely that since most cars in America lived in dry climates and / or were not driven in the wet, they have suffered little rust damage. In most countries in Europe it rains all year around and/or snows in the winter, so there are fewer cars that have not suffered. England is the best example of this, of course, and has brought back many California / dry climate cars since all theirs rusted away years ago.

    It's not the big side marker lights but the condition the Europeans want.

    One would think that Italy would be overflowing with classic Ferraris, but my understanding is that until recently folks there had little interest in past models, instead wanting the very latest. So a lot of cars were exported or junked.
     
  25. robwill2

    robwill2 Rookie

    Apr 13, 2006
    5
    To me, it comes down to the fact that the car was originally designed by Pininfarina as a GT with the flush turn signals and round side markers. Like most cars which evolved over time, I think the original iteration has usually been the best. Look at E-type Jaguars for instance. I have a euro 1973 GT with power windows and A/C
    and went out of my way to find a euro car. I removed the A/C, which could easily be replaced if necessary, because I bought the car to drive and wanted
    to reduce the weight and friction drag of the compressor. This is my third Dino in 20 years and I don't care about its value as I intend to drive it until
    I can't drive anything anymore...
     
  26. John Corbani

    John Corbani Formula 3
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    May 5, 2005
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    Just for backgound info. My Dino could not pass '73 specs with a cracked valve. No smog equiptment working. No air injection, no second points. Redid the heads and it passed just fine. In '75 no more tests so didn't care. Biggest problem was to get it to idle cleanly below 1000 rpm. Only thing that counted then was the idle. Dumb, but that was the rule. Did make a difference which exhaust they put the sensor. Outer (rusted out) tubes tested bad. Inner tubes (still held water) tested good. Was a ***** to get carbs just right once valves worked right but was possible. Some states have figured that there is no way old cars wil pass but they are so small a number that it doesn't matter. 25 years rolling seems to be somewhat reasonable for idiots in the State Houses to comprehend. We can hope.
    John
     
  27. Finitele

    Finitele Formula 3

    Sep 26, 2007
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    Euro cars have more power in pass range and more desireable.


     

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