News

Another Dino on BaT

Discussion in '206/246' started by swift53, Jul 1, 2019.

  1. 19633500GT

    19633500GT F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed

    Nov 9, 2010
    5,901
    Connecticut
    Full Name:
    Ken S
    If it has a clean history and is just a bitsa, the price (to me) is a game of musical chairs in the future. I wouldn’t pay $150K for this, because down the road I don’t want to have to explain what is happening right now as we speak. It’s certainly worth “something” but I have no idea what that is (beyond whatever the final bid is WHICH, at this point, I guarantee the sellers stock in this car has got to of plummeted at least 50-60% mentally with the unearthing of all this). My guess is they’re about to learn a hard lesson in losing $100-200K on a car.
     
    375+ and UroTrash like this.
  2. dm_n_stuff

    dm_n_stuff Global Moderator
    Global Moderator Owner Lifetime Rossa

    Dec 10, 2003
    34,073
    The Sunshine State
    Full Name:
    Dave
    The car is a mess, historically.

    Lots of conflicting information, BUT, it is registered, right? So, someone, somehow got a title for the car and has it registered.

    If it's on a bill of sale, that could be a problem. Didn't notice mention of BOS vs. Title in the listing.

    Gimme a grinder, and 20 minutes to work it, and we'll grind off that serial number plate and see what's hiding underneath. I'm guessing, even if the number isn't original to the car, only a TOTAL idiot would leave the old number UNDER the replacement, but, hey, ya never know.

    Too bad no one is allowed close enough to do a thorough inspection, maybe contacting the last guy who tried to sell it would help?

    D
     
  3. 19633500GT

    19633500GT F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed

    Nov 9, 2010
    5,901
    Connecticut
    Full Name:
    Ken S
    It says it has a clean CA title. That frankly means very little though. It is not hard to get a title for a car, especially pre-1981, non 17 digit VIN cars (in title states, or, you can use VT or ME, get a transferable clean registration, and turn that into your state to process a "new" title).
     
  4. Smiles

    Smiles Moderator
    Moderator Owner

    Nov 20, 2003
    12,711
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Full Name:
    Matt F
    I think it means a lot if the car was ever stolen.

    At least in Pennsylvania if the title paperwork matches a VIN tracing, you own the car.

    Matt
     
  5. Smiles

    Smiles Moderator
    Moderator Owner

    Nov 20, 2003
    12,711
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Full Name:
    Matt F
    And I’d actually bid on this if it were a GTS!

    Matt
     
  6. bay

    bay Formula Junior

    Mar 13, 2011
    717
    Belgium
    Full Name:
    Bernard
  7. tx246

    tx246 F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Nov 4, 2003
    5,534
    Texas
    Full Name:
    Shawn
    The fact that it does have a title, could also be problematic.

    In Texas, to obtain a title on a car only requires a Department of Public Safety Officerto inspect and verify that the car VIN is written correctly. Pretty easy.

    Once that title is in hand, it is only a piece of paper.

    However, if fraud had been perpetrated, the NEW title is voided and charges will be filed. There is a very well known example of an Elenor making company putting new VIN’s on there cars over original Ford VIN’s and it was major legal problem.

    No idea what happened here, but this car has been for sale in the FML since November and on the dealers website for sometime, at $399,990. I have no doubt they knew nothing about all of this. Why would they risk such stuff? They got blindsided just trying to market a Dino.

    I am not sure this car can legally transfer in California. A previous Dino with a similar issue has been covered in the past here on F-Chat, in fact several. In one of those threads, it was mentioned cars like this could be seized. Not sure if that was an exaggeration or not, but based on the fact that nothing like that has happened, means it most likely was an exaggeration, but would you risk it?

    I have dealt with serial numbers not matching before and the only way to properly sort is AT the factory. It has to go back to Ferrari itself, so now add in risk and a nice expensive factory review, and in the end, you still have to dance around what ever happened, and I am sure we will never know.

    Having said that, if this was a Dino you owned, I don’t think there could be a better Dino to not have to worry about how miles effect value.

    Maybe any effort to shed light on the history rather than hide it would go a million miles, but I have no idea why this is being down played instead of being upfront.

    Shawn
     
    George Vosburgh and Smiles like this.
  8. swift53

    swift53 F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Nov 17, 2007
    4,485
    E.S.
    Full Name:
    Alberto
    Two scenarios:

    1. Remove #01208 plate , and find #06696. OK, now what?
    2. Remove #01208 plate, re-weld it properly. OK, now what?

    Doomed, no matter what.

    It might be a very, lengthy, legally risky, potentially dubious, and expensive endeavour.
    So, pray tell, what sort of Dino do you end up with?

    Just buy another car, life is too short :)

    Regards, Alberto
     
  9. dm_n_stuff

    dm_n_stuff Global Moderator
    Global Moderator Owner Lifetime Rossa

    Dec 10, 2003
    34,073
    The Sunshine State
    Full Name:
    Dave
    well, for $106K, it might be worth the risk.

    What's the value of the sum of the parts? Probably close to that if they're real.

    And given that there is ZERO information available about the potential donor car, and the serial number/vin that is ON this car has a title associated with it, youo'd have yourself a nice driver dino at a 60%+ discount off of list price.

    Then you take the time to clean up the provenance and you've doubled your money. Or you part it out and walk away.

    D
     
  10. mar3kl

    mar3kl Formula Junior

    Nov 17, 2011
    343
    Silicon Valley
    Full Name:
    Mark
    That assumes you can buy it for $106k. I suspect the reserve is considerably higher, and the auction will end with it not having been met.
     
  11. Smiles

    Smiles Moderator
    Moderator Owner

    Nov 20, 2003
    12,711
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Full Name:
    Matt F
    I think you're right.

    I'll be curious to see how it plays out.

    My best guess is, as Chas says above, that it doesn't make it's reserve.

    If not, the issues with car are now well documented and broadcast. The seller would be wise to drop the reserve or it's going to be unsellable. I think this auction is the best chance he has to maximize and realize the car's value.

    Matt
     
  12. 375+

    375+ F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed Rossa Subscribed

    Dec 28, 2005
    6,171
    I would try Mecum or Barrett Jackson;) most of the bidders do little due diligenceo_O
     
    swift53 likes this.
  13. swift53

    swift53 F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Nov 17, 2007
    4,485
    E.S.
    Full Name:
    Alberto
    Totally agree that it will not make reserve by an eternity, unless as the buyer,
    you know something the rest of the word is unaware of, but I seriously doubt it.
    Maybe you are friends with the fellow in the UK, that is selling a chassis/body, with one door, there is your provenance,
    only a transplant required, but he wants insane GBP.

    All you have to do is Google #01208, not due diligence. This Dino is burned. Not even the Pope can save it,
    and, if I were Ferrari, neither would I, but then....;)

    I think by now, in Dinoland, everyone knows #01208 by heart.

    Regards, Alberto
     
  14. 4CamGT

    4CamGT Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 23, 2004
    2,138
    Southern California
    It might be more interesting to think of what it would be worth in individual parts. Maybe have individual auctions for each part? Any guesses?

    - Body Shell/Chassis
    - Doors
    - Lids
    - Suspension
    - Brakes
    - Bumpers
    - Engine
    - Gearbox
    - Air Box
    - Air Filter Assembly
    - Wiper Assembly
    - Gauges
    - Switches
    - Wheels
    - Seats
    - Door Panels
    - Rear Panel
    - Steering Column
    - Steering Wheel
    - Horn Button
    - Title W/Stamped Plates
    - Chrome Trim
    - Badges
    - Dashboard
    - Center Console
    - Wiring Loom
    - Dinoplex Assembly
    - Misc Etc
     
  15. dm_n_stuff

    dm_n_stuff Global Moderator
    Global Moderator Owner Lifetime Rossa

    Dec 10, 2003
    34,073
    The Sunshine State
    Full Name:
    Dave
    #65 dm_n_stuff, Jul 7, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2019
    Ahh, but a simple search will give BJ or Mecum pause, and they generally do a little due diligence, right?

    And in this era, once it hits the internet, it never goes away.

    D
     
  16. HMB-Dino

    HMB-Dino Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 28, 2010
    1,809
    Pebble Beach, CA
    Full Name:
    RonG
    I have no inside info but with all the commentary on the BaT listing and the owner not chiming in or providing the requested `evidence' photos, I have to believe the owner knew exactly what they have (a total mess) and is just trying to get rid of it. Perhaps they had no idea when they first acquired it, but I'm guessing they learned about this car's `issues' before putting it on BaT. How else can you explain the total silence. And the longer the silence, the more toxic the car becomes.
     
    375+ likes this.
  17. Nuvolari

    Nuvolari F1 Veteran
    Sponsor Owner

    Sep 3, 2002
    5,076
    Toronto / SoCal
    Full Name:
    Rob C.
    I’m of a different option that the seller had no clue and got very publicly informed on BAT. Now any information they provide will only further prove that the car is not an M series so they are just waiting out the auction.

    I do not think they would have been so foolish to try and pass off a known problem car in a sales forum as public as BAT.
     
  18. tx246

    tx246 F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Nov 4, 2003
    5,534
    Texas
    Full Name:
    Shawn
    All,

    I feel 100% certain the Seller had no idea of this issue. They are a legit dealer with a history of dealing with high end cars. I have never bought or sold by them, but have communicated with them multiple time over many years about Dino stuff. I have no interest in the Dealer/Seller or this car or any other.

    They have had this Dino advertised for 9 months and I believe they saw an opportunity ride the Dino BAT wave.

    I think the timing of the auction coincided with an absence to respond, and by then things spiraled out of control.

    In terms of the Dino itself, the situation makes everyone think and fear the worst case scenario. The reality is most likely far from worst case. This isn’t a $400k Dino, but it also isn’t a $100k Dino.

    Let’s be realistic, there may or may not be an issue. Rather than dump this car at a loss, there is also an Estate in the mix, which if the claim is true that it recently came out of an Estate, a statute of limitations claim wouldn’t be an issue to overcome.

    This car has time to be solved, just not in the last couple of days of a public auction. Pulling the car would harm the Public Sale venue, especially considering the damage model that needs to truly exist.

    This isn’t a kit car or a tribute car, it is a Bitsa, but a great car that can be enjoyed.

    If I was the Seller, I would let auction run. See what the final bid price is/was. After that, I would go back to the Estate (most likely not some simple or low value Estate), and threaten legal action for fraud.

    If I had to guess, the Estate would settle quickly and easily, in fear of some other type of litigation.

    At that point, the Dino has had time for more info to come to light.

    If, in fact, this is the early chassis that was used, but later body or mechanical parts used to rebuild, all will be good. All other options are pure speculation at this point.

    As much as I hate, open communication hasn’t existed, but I can also understand why it wouldn’t.

    Shawn
     
    Nuvolari and schwoo like this.
  19. pshoejberg

    pshoejberg Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 22, 2007
    1,070
    Denmark
    Full Name:
    Peter H
    This car is impossible to register in my part of the world with a tampered chassis number. Exemption can only be granted if the factory provides a written clarification verifying the authenticity of the "new" chassis number.

    Best

    Peter
     
    swift53 likes this.
  20. Bluebottle

    Bluebottle F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 15, 2012
    4,628
    Exeter and Cirencester
    Full Name:
    John
    Obviously the provenance of this car is dodgy to say the least, but, so long as it is not stolen, if it is in reasonable order (which it appears to be) and drives well, then it could be a way into the joys of Dino ownership for someone who would otherwise not be able to afford it.:)
     
  21. dm_n_stuff

    dm_n_stuff Global Moderator
    Global Moderator Owner Lifetime Rossa

    Dec 10, 2003
    34,073
    The Sunshine State
    Full Name:
    Dave
    Were you not a $250K bidder on this car before they reset the auction?

    D
     
  22. tx246

    tx246 F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Nov 4, 2003
    5,534
    Texas
    Full Name:
    Shawn
    Dave,

    I have not/did not bid on this car and to the best of my knowledge, this auction has not/was not reset since it started.

    Shawn
     
  23. dm_n_stuff

    dm_n_stuff Global Moderator
    Global Moderator Owner Lifetime Rossa

    Dec 10, 2003
    34,073
    The Sunshine State
    Full Name:
    Dave
    #73 dm_n_stuff, Jul 8, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2019
  24. HMB-Dino

    HMB-Dino Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 28, 2010
    1,809
    Pebble Beach, CA
    Full Name:
    RonG
    I need to clarify my prior post. Remember, the BaT seller is a dealer who has this Dino on consignment...it is not listed on BaT by the actual owner who acquired it last year. So I am not so much questioning the consignment dealer (of whether they did or did not know of the issues), but rather the actual owner who consigned it. Of course we don't know the owner's motivation behind selling this Dino after such a fairly short period of time.

    As for going back to the estate, as someone who sold off 15 mostly not running classic cars from a friend's estate, it all depends on how the executor positioned the Dino for sale. In my case, I had no idea what was wrong with the cars (many hadn't been registered for 10-30 years), so I had to sell them as is and be up front that I didn't know their condition or why they were set aside into storage for so long. I'm sure I could've sold most of them for more if I had been able to communicate the nature of their issues. But if the estate promoted this Dino as a matching numbers car, well, then they're very, very exposed. It's also very possible that the executor knew absolutely nothing about classic cars or Dino's in particular. That's why I've inventoried and documented valuations on all my stuff so my non-car guy (executor) brother won't just toss out things like my original Dino toolkit and docs...:eek:

    Of course, it would be ideal if the history of #1208, 02604 and 06696 were known since it seems they're all part of this puzzle.

    Maybe someone should put up a poll as to whether this Dino is #1208 with all that E-series stuff, or an E-series Dino with the wrong chassis # plate...
     
  25. HMB-Dino

    HMB-Dino Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 28, 2010
    1,809
    Pebble Beach, CA
    Full Name:
    RonG
    Then it becomes even more of a mystery since 9 months ago was 2018 and the current owner acquired it from the estate in 2018. So why...an attempt at a quick flip (presuming it was purchased at a bargain from the estate), or because the mismatching came to light?
     

Share This Page