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Antifreeze / Coolant Nerds - HELP

Discussion in '456/550/575' started by TheZinger, Feb 13, 2020.

  1. TheZinger

    TheZinger Rookie

    Oct 5, 2019
    31
    Fort Lauderdale, FL
    Full Name:
    Kai
    So I'm doing a thermostat change and I drained the coolant from the radiator in preparation.

    The coolant that drained was green - like original, green IAT stuff. If I'm not mistaken, that's not right for this car?

    I've got quite a few BMWs and have the blue BMW/Volvo HOAT coolant lying around - I called my tech and he said that was fine to use. But I didn't realize at the time that the car had green stuff in there - and from my understanding, IAT and HOAT should not mix.

    So what the hell do I do? lol Do I go back and drain the block as best I can (which won't be everything), or can I just go and buy some of the original green stuff and keep using that until I go to the shop later this year for the belt service and just have him do a complete flush then?
     
  2. flash32

    flash32 Formula 3

    Aug 22, 2008
    1,455
    Central NJ
    Full Name:
    Dominick
    Drain as much or flush with distilled water and use g05 zerex

    Sent from my moto g(7) using Tapatalk
     
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  3. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Jul 19, 2008
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    #3 tazandjan, Feb 14, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2020
    Many of us use Zerex G05, which uses nitrites to prevent cylinder liner erosion. The additive package only lasts about two years and must be changed at least that often. Newer extended life coolants use organic acid technology (HOAT is hybrid OAT) for the liner erosion protection, and those additive packages will last 3-5 years. Whatever you decide to use, you can flush the system a few times with just water to get most of the old coolant out and then put whatever you want in her as long as it has either nitrites or OAT additives to prevent your wet liners from eroding. If the coolant you choose is not compatible with diesel engines, nearly all of which have wet cylinder liners like our Ferraris, do not use it.

    Here is a pretty good description of the different types of coolant from a heavy duty, diesel point of view, same point of view we have with our V12s. Note when they say add SCAs at 25,000 mile intervals, this is a very short interval for a long distance truck engine. In general, we do not really want IAT or HOAT coolants in our Ferraris. They work fine for Mercedes and BMWs, but those engines do not have wet liners.

    Mainstream green coolant: The original, green-dyed antifreeze/coolants are called conventional low-silicate, but the technical name for this type of coolant and its inhibitor package is Inorganic Acid Technology (IAT). It was typical to start with a low silicate-based product design for cars and light-duty trucks, which required dilution with water, then you needed to “pre-charge” it with specific amounts of supplemental coolant additives (SCAs) to protect heavy duty engine cylinder liners from destructive pitting corrosion.

    Today, most of the “conventional low-silicate” antifreeze/coolants in the market are fully formulated with a pre-charge of SCA to protect the cooling systems of heavy duty engines against corrosion, cavitation, liner pitting, freezing and boilover. However, compared to OAT and NOAT coolant formulations, the IAT coolants do require the frequent addition of SCA at an interval of 25,000 miles, or as specified by the engine manufacturer.

    Hybrid Organic Acid Technology: Hybrid Organic Acid Technology (HOAT), which is a combination of some of the inhibitors used in inorganic IAT and organic OAT coolants, is typically based on a low-silicate, nitrite technology. Unlike the OAT and NOAT Extended Life Coolants (ELC), HOAT coolants, like the IAT coolants, typically require SCA added back into the system at the first maintenance interval (25,000 miles) or as specified by the engine manufacturer.

    HOAT coolants are most commonly found dyed yellow or orange. These formulations are not compatible with the extended interval coolant formulation of either NOAT or OAT coolants and should not be mixed with them.

    Nitrited Organic Acid Technology: Extended Life Coolant (ELC) does not require a supplement (referred to as an extender) until 300,000 miles or 6,000 engine hours to achieve the full 600,000 miles or 12,000 engine hours of service life.

    The ELC antifreeze/coolants use organic acids (organic additive technology), nitrite and/or molybdenum as part of their inhibitor package and are referred to as Nitrited Organic Acid Technology (NOAT) antifreeze/coolants.

    Organic Acid Technology: Organic Acid Technology (OAT) has no nitrite added. These coolants typically provide 600,000 miles or 12,000 engine hours of service life, but their performance life can be drastically reduced if contaminated with nitrite-containing coolants.
     
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  4. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob F1 World Champ
    Owner Consultant

    Aug 10, 2002
    17,623
    socal
    Nothing will blow up. Definately Zerex g05. Last research that was the go to stuff for reasons illuded to from Taz. It is what we use in diesel engines for liner cavitation which a few 550's have had. A FEW! There are other conditions that help to create liner cavitation and it may have nothing to do with how the 550 V12 works. That said in 50 years I have never drained a block to do a coolant change. I'm too lazy. I'm also not big on distilled water but that's ok have at it. I would drain the current coolant. Add just water, run to temp or just to mix, drain and repeat a few times. You can drain into a 5g bucket and see how much come out. Look in manual it is like 20qt full I forget. Do the math gives you an idea how much water is still in the block and hoses. Add straight G05 to get around a 50/50 mix as needed. You don't have to be exact 50/50.
     
  5. TheZinger

    TheZinger Rookie

    Oct 5, 2019
    31
    Fort Lauderdale, FL
    Full Name:
    Kai
    Thank you for that very thorough explanation - I appreciate it, and that has helped my understanding of that greatly.
     
  6. TheZinger

    TheZinger Rookie

    Oct 5, 2019
    31
    Fort Lauderdale, FL
    Full Name:
    Kai
    Good to know. When you did it, did you drain the block or just radiator over and over? I have to get the car back up on the lift - I assume the drain location(s) are self explanatory.... I have read there is one on each side of the block?
     
  7. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Jul 19, 2008
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    Kai- The 575M WSM calls for only using the radiator drain when draining the coolant.
     
  8. TheZinger

    TheZinger Rookie

    Oct 5, 2019
    31
    Fort Lauderdale, FL
    Full Name:
    Kai
    I have a ‘99 550... not much of a difference there, but who knows. Anyone have any insight on this?

    you’re really leaving a ton of stuff in the system by not draining the block....
     
  9. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob F1 World Champ
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    Aug 10, 2002
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    the other thing is I never wait until my coolant is so far past its prime that you have to drain the block. Two really nasty things I see all the time is rusted out coolant and black brake fluid. Neither of those should ever happen so that you don't have to do an aggressive flush.
     
  10. TheZinger

    TheZinger Rookie

    Oct 5, 2019
    31
    Fort Lauderdale, FL
    Full Name:
    Kai
    Normally I wouldn’t except that IAT and HOAT are a no-no for mixing apparently. If I’m going to go through the trouble of doing something, I want to do it right :).


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
  11. TheZinger

    TheZinger Rookie

    Oct 5, 2019
    31
    Fort Lauderdale, FL
    Full Name:
    Kai
    One more thing...

    When I pulled apart my thermostat, around the smaller rubber gasket there was what looked like a silicone sealant of sorts. Is it normal to supplement the gaskets on the thermostat with that?


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
  12. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    26,868
    Austin TX
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    Brian Crall
    Not true at all. We have been seeing it since the days of the Lampredi motors, we just didn't know what it was. It is just worse now because of the BMEP is higher.

    Changing coolant without draining the block is a waste of time.
     
  13. franschman

    franschman Karting

    Dec 18, 2017
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    Holland
    Full Name:
    Bart Boosman
  14. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob F1 World Champ
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    Aug 10, 2002
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    G48 is like a pure HOAT good for BMW's using the blue BMW coolant. It is fine for your Ferrari.

    G05 is a HOAT nitrated with additive package for diesel engines. It is the spec for my ram diesel.

    It is known Diesels cavitate hence G05, SCA, and other anti-cavitation additives speced for every diesel motor. Diesel cavitation will perforate a liner during the motor's service life.

    Gas motors have minimal to no cavitation issues in general. There have been 2 reported Fchat owner's with liner cavitation and 1 of the two under other suspicion circumstances. Neither of those issue resulted in liner perforation but where discovered and discussed here upon teardown/rebuild for other reasons.

    The alarm bell was sounded and many like me "hear it" but are not worried about it. I have diesel flowing in my veins. I stock G05 for my diesel. It is simple and does not cost me anything to put G05 in my 550 Ferrari and get the added benefit of an anti-cavitation additive package at no additional cost over g48 or anything else and I get to stock one less different fluid in my garage. I even use diesel motor old in my gas racecar engines. I run no cats in it and get extra ZDDP in the diesel oil and pay cheap diesel oil prices vs. b the high price of ZDDP in a gas racing oil.
     
  15. johnk...

    johnk... F1 Veteran
    Owner

    Jun 11, 2004
    7,764
    New England/FL
    No to argue, just a data point. My 308 QV came with the green stuff and to this day I still use the green stuff in it and I haven't been that proactive when it comes to changing antifreeze. The car is 35 years old, has 33k miles on it and I have never had any kind of a cooling/liner issue with it. It's still running the original water pump. The few coolant hoses I have replaced showed no signs of corrosion.

    My 355 came to me with Honda antifreeze in it. I will continue to use that.
     
  16. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Jul 19, 2008
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    I would not use G48 in a Ferrari. Works fine in Mercedes and BMW engines without wet liners.
     
  17. johnk...

    johnk... F1 Veteran
    Owner

    Jun 11, 2004
    7,764
    New England/FL
    It's all BS anyway. You have an old car? Use IAT. Newer car, OAT of HOAT as appropriate. You guys really need to stop drinking the Cool Aid. You're starting to scare me. :eek:
     
  18. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob F1 World Champ
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    Aug 10, 2002
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    LOL Starting?

    Note thread title..."..coolant nerds...."
     
  19. johnk...

    johnk... F1 Veteran
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    Jun 11, 2004
    7,764
    New England/FL
    Yes, really. All I can say is that when I was growing up Prestone used to advertise "PERMANENT Antifreeze". Then about the same time Jiffy Lube came out with "change your oil every 3000 miles" antifreeze became change it every 2 years, then long life (3 yrs), then extended life (5 yrs). Funny how it went to 5 years as soon as car manufactures stated selling cars with 5 year service contracts.

    "By the way Mr. K, your service contracts ended a month ago. We will need to change you antifreeze [now that you have to pay for it]."
     
  20. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Jul 19, 2008
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    John- Everything you have posted is grossly oversimplified.
     
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  21. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    26,868
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    Brian Crall
    Believe what you like but don't spread disinformation for everyone else. In short this entire post is ILLINFORMED BS.
     
  22. johnk...

    johnk... F1 Veteran
    Owner

    Jun 11, 2004
    7,764
    New England/FL
    Terry, not to be an dick, but looking at the cars you owned in the past, have you considered what kind of antifreeze they were delivered with, or were serviced with for most of their life?
     
  23. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob F1 World Champ
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    Aug 10, 2002
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    Do the research...plenty for you to read.
     
  24. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Jul 19, 2008
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    John- of course I have. You do know we have wet liners in our engines, right? All my Ferraris since the first one in 1975 have used coolant with nitrites to prevent liner corrosion. The Corvettes I had used what came from the factory since they had no wet liners. My one water cooled Porsche and my Mercedes cars/SUVs had their coolant changed regularly even though the techs told me it did not need changing. Many of the problems we see on Ferraris are caused by the factory not recommending regular coolant changes. We have at least one FChatter who had a hole corroded in his 550's cylinder liner from lack of coolant changes, likely helped by using the wrong type of coolant. There are dozens of 360 owners whose heat exchangers have corroded through, mixing coolant in with transaxle fluid for the same reason.

    So, no, we are not making too big a deal about this because improper coolant maintenance can cause long term problems.

    We either need to use G05 and change it at least every two years, or use one of the ELCs like Shell Rotella Ultra ELC. See below for info on what Shell says about coolant and heavy duty/wet cylinder engines and the need to add SCAs if the top line Ultra was not used. Car owners do not add SCAs, so we need to start with the right stuff, and that is not G48.
     

    Attached Files:

  25. johnk...

    johnk... F1 Veteran
    Owner

    Jun 11, 2004
    7,764
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    G05 is supposed to be good for 5 years.


    Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

    As I said:

     

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