Any idea on this 212 ?

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by Tom Roland, Jul 1, 2009.

  1. Tom Roland

    Tom Roland Formula Junior

    Feb 14, 2006
    354
    Advertised in the August 1958 Quattroruote
     
  2. Tom Roland

    Tom Roland Formula Junior

    Feb 14, 2006
    354
    #2 Tom Roland, Jul 1, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  3. kare

    kare F1 Rookie
    Consultant

    Nov 11, 2003
    3,120
    #3 kare, Jul 1, 2009
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2009
    0205EL.

    Best wishes, Kare
     
  4. Aardy

    Aardy F1 Rookie
    Consultant

    Feb 21, 2004
    3,498
    France
    Full Name:
    Cyril TESTE
    Was 0205EL originally a 212 Inter Ghia coupe ?? I'm still wonder if it could not be one of the two 212 Inter Ghia cabriolet (with 0191EL) as I have never saw an old picture of 0205EL as a Ghia coupe.
     
  5. kare

    kare F1 Rookie
    Consultant

    Nov 11, 2003
    3,120
    For me this is a tempting thought. It looks like the original body was chopped and converted into this weird spider. One thing that bugs me is the door; it looks like it was quickly cut down a little, but the location of the door handle does not match the doors seen on Ghia coupés... but it might match the convertibles. Therefore I would say yes, 0205EL may have started life as a Ghia convertible. Best wishes, Kare
     
  6. Tom Roland

    Tom Roland Formula Junior

    Feb 14, 2006
    354
    #6 Tom Roland, Jul 2, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Thanks Kare and Aardy for the identity. Now 0205 EL was definitely a Ghia first sold to actress Vivi Gioi through Luigi Rovere but coupé or cabrio is not precised although Gerald Roush risked "coupe" in his FML, back in August 1986. Of course all the "s/n anoraks" followed.
    Re Ghia "spyders", 0191 EL, a Rhd was first sold to Editoriale Domus' (before Quattroruote appeared) owner. It's obviously the first one. The second Ghia cabrio was Lhd and 0205 is a triffle early though not impossible...
    By the way the Vignale coupé body here, coming from Mike Sparken's Aston DB3 and installed in the late 50s on 0196A was reinstalled on some Ghia chassis by DK Engineering but I forgot to note which one. Could it be 0205EL ?
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  7. Tired of seeing this ad? Upgrade now
  8. kare

    kare F1 Rookie
    Consultant

    Nov 11, 2003
    3,120
    #7 kare, Jul 2, 2009
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2009
    It is. Are you sure there was a LHD Ghia cabrio? Is there a picture? FWIW, 0205EL seems to have been a RHD from the start. Best wishes, Kare
     
  9. Tom Roland

    Tom Roland Formula Junior

    Feb 14, 2006
    354
    Kare you are right, I am wrong. Both Ghia cabs. were Rhd.

    Photos:
    - 0191EL, the Domus car, in Ferrari Album #1 page 38, 2 photos
    - the Torino 52 car in my book page 57 (Photo Millanta)

    I am not even sure which was the first ! And it is also possible that there was only one car, the Torino car being modified before its sales to Domus...
     
  10. kare

    kare F1 Rookie
    Consultant

    Nov 11, 2003
    3,120
    #9 kare, Jul 2, 2009
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2009
    I have great difficulties trying to estimate which pieces of information are realiable and which could be based on a confusion. I have hard time believing that 0191EL was first built as a RHD convertible then teared down and rebuilt as a LHD coupe. Why would anyone tear down a brand new car, when new frames were also being built all the time? Could it be possible that 0191EL was just delayed in production (being the first LHD built) and the two cabriolets were 0205EL and 0233EL instead?

    It is also possible that 0191EL was teared down and the body reused on 0233EL. Timeframe would allow this.

    What is actually known about the Domus car?

    Best wishes, Kare
     
  11. Aardy

    Aardy F1 Rookie
    Consultant

    Feb 21, 2004
    3,498
    France
    Full Name:
    Cyril TESTE
    Would not be logical to see :

    - 0191EL as the first 212 Ghia convertible
    - 0205EL as the second 212 Ghia convertible
    - 0233EL as the Peron 212 Ghia Coupe

    The coupe Peron was shown with s/n 0235EU at the 1952 Paris show. So, it must be originally numbered 0233EL. Don't know where this story of s/n 0191EL for Peron came from...
     
  12. Tom Roland

    Tom Roland Formula Junior

    Feb 14, 2006
    354
    #11 Tom Roland, Jul 2, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I do agree that established believings are often disastrous and try to stay aside as much as possible.

    MI 197153 is a fact from the photo of Ferrari Album #1. (Sorry I am also reluctant in infringing copyrights).

    The attached PRA file tells more about the Domus "spyder"...

    It is true also that 0233, the '52 Paris Show Ghia coupé surfaced in Argentina in the 70s restamped 0191EL but this is another story.

    So now, isn't the modification of the "spyder" between the Turin Show (Millanta's pix in my book) and the sale to Domus conceivable ?

    Best
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  13. tongascrew

    tongascrew F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2006
    2,989
    tewksbury
    Full Name:
    george burgess
    The for sale picture from 1953 shows a car that certainly does not look like anything I have seen as being "original" The only thing I can compare it to is one of the home built Marzotto cars. If this is a Ferrari it would appear to be "custom" body built on a rolling chassis and not an original Ghia body. If so which Ghia carozzeria buil this and for whome and when??? The ACI doccument indicated that 0191 is a spyder. My Italian is non existant but does the doccument indicate a Carozzeria etc? Maybe Tom can give us a translation of 197153. Also can we get more on the 0191 that showed up in South America. There appears to be a lot going on here and it would be nice to hear more even if it is only theory. just one man's opinion tongascrew
     
  14. Tired of seeing this ad? Upgrade now
  15. Aardy

    Aardy F1 Rookie
    Consultant

    Feb 21, 2004
    3,498
    France
    Full Name:
    Cyril TESTE
    So, we must have :

    - 0191EL : the dark colored 212 Inter Ghia convertible shown at the Geneva show in march 1952, then with "MI 197153" plates, and also at one time with "92 TT 3T" plates. Today lost or may be destroyed ?
    - 0205EL : the yellow 212 Inter Ghia convertible shown at the Turin show in april 1952. Today our poor spyder now with ex-0196A and ex-Aston Martin Vignale coupe body.
    - 0233EL : the yellow 212 Inter Ghia coupe shown at the Paris show in october 1952, later renumbered (?) 0191EL, possibly when 0191EL had been destroyed (?), today in USA.
     
  16. Tom Roland

    Tom Roland Formula Junior

    Feb 14, 2006
    354
    Aardy, No more problem with 0191 and 0233. But, re 0205, how do you verify the link between the Turin Show car and the "jeep" ? Back to the beginning ?
     
  17. Aardy

    Aardy F1 Rookie
    Consultant

    Feb 21, 2004
    3,498
    France
    Full Name:
    Cyril TESTE
    I have all the Ghia coupes in pictures. I don't see why I would not have a pic of 0205EL with a coupe body if it was really a Ghia coupe.

    The s/n 0205 seems to match with the date of the 1952 Turin show I think.

    And the wreck of 0205EL before the recent rebody had something which made me think to a Ghia convertible (the windscreen especially).

    But of course, I have no proof unfortunately...
     
  18. Tom Roland

    Tom Roland Formula Junior

    Feb 14, 2006
    354
    Good shot. What can you show of the wreck of 0205 before the recent rebody ? I confess I inclined towards one of these awkward Ghia coupés (212 and 340) the Brits - specially Brooklands Motors - seemed to be fond of !
     
  19. Aardy

    Aardy F1 Rookie
    Consultant

    Feb 21, 2004
    3,498
    France
    Full Name:
    Cyril TESTE
  20. Tom Roland

    Tom Roland Formula Junior

    Feb 14, 2006
    354
  21. kare

    kare F1 Rookie
    Consultant

    Nov 11, 2003
    3,120
    I would expect 0205EL to have been completed sometime in March 1952, so it would be a very good candidate for Turin car.

    Besides the wind screen & frame, the door also matches what I would expect a cabriolet door to look like after it was cut down a little. This is enough to convince me that the "jeep" really was built out of a Ghia cabriolet.

    Best wishes, Kare
     
  22. Tom Roland

    Tom Roland Formula Junior

    Feb 14, 2006
    354
    I agree now that the jeep could be 0205 as you initially said.

    Re these 2 Ghia 212 cabrios we would then have:

    0191EL: Geneva '52 show > Mazzocchi (SrL Domus) > exp. to USA (?) via France (transit plate 92 TT 3T) > identity transfered to 0233EL in Argentina

    0205EL: Turin '52 show > Luigi Rovere > Vivi Gioi > Mochi Zamperoli (jeep) > ? > in UK with Vignale body ex Aston ex 0196A.

    Best wishes
     
  23. tongascrew

    tongascrew F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2006
    2,989
    tewksbury
    Full Name:
    george burgess
    Here is what I have. There was a post on ************.com by Jack Habits on 10/26/05 with the same picture in thread #17 above.There is another B&W copy of the same picture but showing the back and front of the wreck posted 5/28/08 ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=80719&page=2. According to Jack Habits this wrecked body is the original body on #0205EL which was originally a coupe and them changed to a convertible He does not indicate who constructed this body or any other info. Now comparing the two pictures I refer to and the picture in the ad from Zamperoli there are definite similarities with the rear fenders, outside door handles and the front grill opening. Assuming that the date in the ad of 1953 refers to the build date of the car pictured not the date of the ad itself, it may be assumed that Vivi Gioi got the car new in 1953 and at some later date the body was changed to what we see in these pictures. There is reference in the barchetta page on #0205EL of a "rolling chassis".Later the car was rebuilt by DK and a Ghia coupe body from #0196A was installed[light blue/silver top}.Further comments will be of interest. just one man's opinion tongascrew
     

Share This Page