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Anyone agree with JPM?

Discussion in 'Other Racing' started by tifosi69, Feb 23, 2004.

  1. tifosi69

    tifosi69 Formula 3

    Dec 23, 2003
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    Heard Montoya said that MS' accomplishments speak for themselves but that he has never faced serious competition in the past and that will change this year. Anyone agree with this?
     
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  3. beast

    beast F1 Veteran

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    JPM is talking out of his A$$.

    Lets see in 94 MS had to battle with Senna until his untimly death and the williams Reanult

    95 again against the Williams Renault

    2000 very tight battle with 2 time champ Mika

    2001 again a semi tight battle but the Ferrari improved a lot

    2002 well the car was heads and tails better than the field

    2003 MS had a poor handling car and lots of comp from JPM, Kimi, ......

    all 6 of Michael's championships were earned even with the controversey of the "Let MS by" call at Austria. The Ferraris were night and day difference between the rest of the field. but is still took talent and detenination for MS to win.
     
  4. tifosi69

    tifosi69 Formula 3

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    I thought so also, I just think it was Latin machismo talking and JPM was just feeling the need to stir up some controversy. He realizes that he is leaving Williams after this year so he doesn't care what he says. He really should worry about his own lack of control and his double-fisted, around the throat CHOKE at the end of last year. He's just pissed he blew it. BTW, is he saying HE provided MS NO cometition last year? HE should worry more about the new 1 engine rule adversly affecting Williams and their penchant for blowing up engines. IMO
     
  5. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    I second all that. And to add to the list: The Ferrari got better BECAUSE of MS. Unlike e.g. JV who just settled into a made bed.

    What JPM really is saying is, that MS never had a Senna to battle against (not true, 94) and now he has in the form of JPM. So basically JPM puts himself on a level with Senna. Nice. How humble.
     
  6. beast

    beast F1 Veteran

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    Speaking of Senna. Did you notice that Speed TV is going to have another F1 Decade this year. I just dont know if i can stand watching that tragic race again :(
     
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  8. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    I'm with you on that one. Heck, I get teary eyed watching 82 Zolder reruns. It never fails. Senna is particularly hard on me as I was watching that race live. My first reaction to him going off was joy as he wouldn't finish the race. But while he was still heading for the wall I stopped my cheering cold as I realized, that this would not be without injury. It took me only a heartbeat to realize that, however the news of his death was still a very deep shock.
     
  9. tifosi69

    tifosi69 Formula 3

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    I was thinking the EXACT SAME THING this morning. And it's NOT like 96,97 and 98 there was no competition, MS dragged, pulled and pushed an inferior Ferrari into contention in '98. He MADE the car with his mental, driving and technical acuity. Montoya (my nickname for him BTW is "Juan Paco") is an incredible meglomaniac. All he has PROVEN in my mind is that he can be quick, at times, and he can be brilliant, at times, but he needs a LOT of maturity.
     
  10. beast

    beast F1 Veteran

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    Andreas,

    I was the same way. when i saw Senna going off i was jumping for joy. Then when i saw the impact the first words out of my mouth was "Holy F#@%ing S#%@!" That entire weekend was not the greatest with the other death and if i am not mistaken HHF also had a bad off there that took him out for a while.

    Rob
     
  11. tifosi69

    tifosi69 Formula 3

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    Barichello had a horrendous crash that weekend and Rolan Ratzenburger was also killed.
     
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  13. 62 250 GTO

    62 250 GTO F1 Veteran

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    He gave that one back in the US GP. So that year is square.
     
  14. tifosi69

    tifosi69 Formula 3

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    BTW, you guys HIJACKED my thread!!! LOL
     
  15. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Remember the reason for the restart of the race (behind the pace car)? Big crash at the start at the rear of the field. From memory I think a tire went flying into the specatators and hurt some people. It was a really jinxed weekend.

    62 250 GTO, I thought he paid that one back previously to the USGP (forgot which race). I still think MS fumbled at the USGP and only wanted a foto finish.
     
  16. tifosi69

    tifosi69 Formula 3

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    Goof, Roland Ratzenberger. MS did not INTEND to let Rubino win, I agree he mistimed his throttle application.
     
  17. 62 250 GTO

    62 250 GTO F1 Veteran

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    Yeah he f*cked it up. RB was drooling and floored it. What a sh*tty way to end a GP?! It could have been a sweet 1 2. Now it's a total joke.

    As for listening to JM babble. Ever since he screamed "He broke my head, this f*cking guy broke my head"! several times, I don't care to hear him speak or even breathe.
     
  18. tifosi69

    tifosi69 Formula 3

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    GTO, please elaborate ... that one is NOT ringing a bell with me.
     
  19. Omerta

    Omerta Formula Junior

    Jan 10, 2004
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    you got it. MS accomplishments on the track are only half of the story. He was an extreme influence in making the F2002 the best race car ever (considered my many)
     
  20. 62 250 GTO

    62 250 GTO F1 Veteran

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    Hahahahahahahahahaha You didn't see it? There is a video clip of JM walking into a cameraman. It's like someone shot him, the crying and yelling and poor english! Hahahahahahahah!
    I'll grab you the link, look for it in the OT section or maybe racing.

    http://www.kicken.com/funnyfiles2/www.kicken.com-montoya.wmv
     
  21. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Whoa! Good one. A link I'll pass on happily (and I like JPM otherwise). Yup, whining and crying, not like a though guy. Funny how his girlfriend tries to cover his mouth.
    :)
     
  22. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    Okay I missed the start of this thread, regarding MS not having competition.

    Hmmm, here is my opinion. To some degree I have to agree with JPM ... compared to Prost/Senna and Mansell he (MS) had no competition.

    Lets think of the Benetton championships:

    1st one ('94): Great little car that did NOT have the super Renault engine. Some brilliant drives and MS benefited big time by Senna passing away. Cannot remember where Prost was (possibly Ferrari, but they were still firing blanks) and McLaren were wasting their time with Peugoet engines. The drive at somewhere with the car stuck in 5th gear was awesome. Only real competition was Hill stepping into Senna's huge shoes and the F1 establishment giving the Benetton team and MS a hard time.

    MS did deserve the WC, but oh that year would have been very different if Senna had been able to finish the year. Have to give credit to Hill for an outstanding effort considering he was only a test driver not long before.

    2nd one ('95): Benetton had the Renault super engine ... still no competition other than Hill. One sided championship.

    Now Ferrari championships:

    3rd one ('00): Ferrari at last ... ;). Okay for the years between his second and this one, the only real competition he had came from:

    - Ferrari, trying very hard NOT to win a WC :D
    - Ron Dennis coaching Hakenin (who would never have been a WC without Ron and the brilliant McLaren cars). Fast driver but not a winner, and had to have 2 drivers let him pass to score his first win ... this demonstrates very clearly how weak mentally Hakenin is and why he needed a Ron Dennis to make him a winner. A real driver should not need this lap by lap coaching ... no wonder he had to take a rest break. Ron Dennis really is incredible here and I personally think he should get 60% of the credit for both those WCs.
    - The last of the brilliant Williams cars ... that made most drivers look brilliant (but NOT Frentzen interestingly ... hence why I rate him as another steerer and waste of F1 space for all those years. You only get a good car once and that should solidify the career, not destroy it).
    - A Villeneuve that was for once motivated ... but that did not last long, and again if he had started in a lesser car he would have made hardly a ripple in F1.
    - MS panicing and not learning from the likes of Prost and loosing the championships HIMSELF.

    4th one ('01): Reasonable competition from an unreliable McLaren (er, Mercedes engine) and a fast Hakenin ... but reasonably easy WC.

    5th one ('02): Brilliant F2002, made this WC a walk in the park. No competition at ALL.

    6th one ('03): Weak F2003-GA and Bridgestone combination made this much closer than it should have been. Ferrari and Bridgestone nearly lost this championship due to themselves. Rakinen not ready to be a WC, and neither is JPM or Ralph ... let alone RB.

    Thus I have to say that MS's run has been a little like Mick Doohean in the 500cc M/bikes in that there has been NO superstars to take it too them. Is that their fault, NO!, ofcourse not, but they are so good that they have made everybody else look pathetic. Unfortunately though I do believe that 80% of the current F1 grid (and back then) are below average race drivers that should no be driving an F1 car. This is caused IMO by to much corporate BS ... and NOT enough pure racing.

    What has made MS special to me, is not the WCs but the many amazing races that he has won, or nearly won, when he has had to carry a piece of absolute **** Ferrari or a broken Benetton. That very clearly demonstrates his abilities and amazing motivation and will ... that his brother has less than 50% of. A driver that can carry a car is something special ... this his brother cannot do, just like ALL the rest of the grid (except possibly Alonso and maybe Weber) ... how sad!

    Lets hope that the Williams and Renaults ARE fast so we can have a battle on the track like we used to see back in the days of Prost versus Senna. Then it will be interesting to see who comes out on top ... and whether Ferrari can handle real pressure :)

    Pete
     
  23. Hubert

    Hubert F1 Rookie

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    Another instance of desperate f1 reporters putting to print "controvesial" sound bites. But let's just clear the table, once and for all. MS has paid his dues, and he's made ferrari what it is. People like JPM and others that rag on his championships haven't done **** compared to MS, and they won't.
    Every day, yet another knob gets a microphone shoved in his face, and out comes some retarded remark.
    If JPM is so good, let's drop him off at Jaguar, and see what he can make do with. Guess what, he won't. Why? Well, this is the 2nd point everyone CONSTANTLY cries about... b/c Ferrari will outspend anyone. Period.
    Whine. Whine. Whine. But's it's the law of the land, ladies. You play? You gotta pay.
    Seriously. Everyone should STFU, pay their dues, and let THEIR titles speak for themselves.
    Everyone (JPM included) should step up their game, and stop making excuses for why they're all the best losers.
     
  24. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Pete, I would have liked nothing more than shoot a few holes into your statement, but have to say in general I agree. Got some bloody good points there (e.g. Frentzen in the Williams, pathetic, could say the same about DC).

    However I'm still not sure the rest of the field was really that weak. I think MS is simply in a class of his own. And I did take Mika very serious. He was blazingly fast.

    Anyway, this year should be interesting: MS facing the mighty Williams.
     
  25. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    Excellent point ... but DC has come to the end of his boring road ;)

    Hmmm, maybe I did not say this quite right. Hakenin has been MS's only real competition, but I cannot rate Mika as a great driver because take Ron Dennis away and he would look like Frentzen ... infact Mika would have done no better in the awesome Williams than Frentzen did IMO. But you are right Hakenin/McLaren/Ron Dennis gave MS a very hard time ... but MS/Ferrari also had a huge albatros (sp?) on their back. Would Hakenin give MS the same hard time now? ... I don't think so because MS (I think) has grown up and learnt how to gain those bloody points and NOT win every race. Also Ferrari now listen to their drivers and build very good cars. The cars back then built by Ferrari were comical.

    Yes can't wait!!!, could be the best year for many years.

    I also agree with Hubert's comments because the rest of the field need to stop talking and start walking the walk ... ;)

    Pete
     
  26. tifosi69

    tifosi69 Formula 3

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    Perfect!
     
  27. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    LOL

    No Pete, seriously, this is the year. You'll see. Seriously, this is it.
    :)
     
  28. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    LOL, have you been talking with his mother again ... :D

    Pete
     

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