Aviation Incidents from Kathryn's Report | Page 7 | FerrariChat
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Aviation Incidents from Kathryn's Report

Discussion in 'Aviation Chat' started by Juan-Manuel Fantango, Nov 17, 2016.

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  1. joker57676

    joker57676 Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Deplorie McDeplorableface
    #151 joker57676, Aug 6, 2017
    Perhaps that was a bit harsh. Still, this incident doesn't happen if the pilot had simply continued to fly the aircraft. It was very avoidable.

    Sad event for sure. Distractions such as this have claimed many, many pilots. I'm sorry for your friend.

    Lunch would be great if we ever get a chance. :)

    At my school, my CFI was the guy all students had to do their final stage-checkride with before doing the real thing. He had to sign off all students before they were allowed to do their checkrides. Everyone was terrified of him. Almost everyone failed his stage-checkride.

    The first time he popped a door on me was right as we rotated (also in a C172). He just looked at me and in a calm, monotone voice said "so what do you do now." We had plenty of runway, so I just put it back down. I was very relieved to learn that was the right now.

    His name was Frank. He was such a great character. I loved training with him. In addition to popping doors randomly, he would also randomly pull the throttle to idle and say "land on runway XX." The tower was always willing to accommodate his craziness, thankfully. Man, we did some crazy steep, turning approaches.



    Mark
     
  2. Tcar

    Tcar F1 Rookie

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    #152 Tcar, Aug 6, 2017
    Friend of my Dad's had a Bonanza V-tail.

    Door popped on rotation, charts and paper flying everywhere in the cabin.

    He reached over to try to close it and scraped the R wingtip on the runway.

    Leveled off, went around and landed. There was a surprising amount of damage to the wing, $$$$.
     
  3. sigar

    sigar F1 Rookie
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    #153 sigar, Aug 7, 2017
    I've had the door and emergency window pop open during rotation in Bonanzas. Fortunately, I had been trained on this condition and they were non events. Had I not had prior training it could have been a different story. I'd like to think I would aviate first and foremost, but I can see distraction leading to a very bad day.
     
  4. renman95

    renman95 Karting

    Jul 16, 2016
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    #154 renman95, Aug 8, 2017
    I had the canopy of an A-6E slide back a few inches at 32,000' over El Paso back in 1985 or 6. I lost a few pages of info on my kneeboard. Slowed down, toggled it closed, continued to march...

    Landed with the aft air stairs down in a 727 at night in Colorado Springs. The ramp personnel said the spark-show was impressive.
     
  5. jcurry

    jcurry Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #155 jcurry, Aug 8, 2017
    When my Dad and I were training he had an instructor who would pull the mixture to simulate an engine failure, which did effectively shut off the engine. One time, not with Dad thankfully, the engine did not re-start when the mixture was pushed back in. Student and instructor had a real life off-airport event. My Dad had a new instructor after that.
     
  6. Alden

    Alden F1 Rookie
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    #156 Alden, Aug 8, 2017
    Yes, the very first time I soloed, in a Warrior, the door popped open on rotation or soon after.

    Since my instructor always sat in the right seat, he always latched the door closed, but failed to instruct me to do so.

    I leveled out, trimmed the plane for level fight and reached over and closed and latched the door.

    It was surprising, but not terrifying. I guess the hours of training for other unexpected events in flight paid off.

    The left main gear fell off that airplane about a week before too. Low time pilot with a friend aboard. Made a very nice landing on the grass with just a few scrapes. Sonny, the old ramp rat who ran the FBO, found the gear in a back yard near the airport, re-installed it and I soloed the next weekend.

    They told me about the gear incident AFTER I soloed, of course!

    I was supposed to solo the previous week, but had to be out of town on business.

    I guess if the gear fell off on my solo, that would have been an interesting experience.

    The only way the pilot knew about the gear was that the guys in the tower saw it hanging by the brake line when he flew past. It fell off completely soon after. If he had been at an airport without a tower, the landing would have been a real surprise, I am sure.
    Alden
     
  7. Juan-Manuel Fantango

    Juan-Manuel Fantango F1 World Champ
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    #157 Juan-Manuel Fantango, Aug 10, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  8. Juan-Manuel Fantango

    Juan-Manuel Fantango F1 World Champ
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    #158 Juan-Manuel Fantango, Aug 10, 2017
    More updates from the comment section

    Anonymous said...

    Look at that trim tab.

    Friday, July 28, 2017 at 11:26:00 PM EDT

    Anonymous said...

    Incredible story of heroism by all involved in rescue efforts. Thank you for your service gentlemen. You are kind souls.

    Saturday, July 29, 2017 at 4:13:00 PM EDT

    Anonymous said...

    Is that a "For Sale" sign on the aircraft window?
    Sunday, July 30, 2017 at 11:13:00 AM EDT

    Anonymous said...

    Demo flight?

    Sunday, July 30, 2017 at 11:46:00 AM EDT

    Doug Trout said...

    Hard to know exactly as Oshkosh does require paperwork to be displayed.

    Sunday, July 30, 2017 at 2:32:00 PM EDT

    Anonymous said...

    ^ affirmative, correct.

    Sunday, July 30, 2017 at 3:49:00 PM EDT

    Anonymous said...

    I'd almost say the checklist was not done. Look at that trim tab. I don't think that is correct for that plane for takeoff.

    Monday, July 31, 2017 at 8:24:00 AM EDT

    Anonymous said...

    Re. the earlier speculation concerning the tab...perhaps not.
    The tab position may well be normal for takeoff since the Wikipedia picture of the NOAA owned version of this plane is in the exact same position right after takeoff.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Renegade

    Monday, July 31, 2017 at 2:28:00 PM EDT

    Anonymous said...

    My Buccaneer has tabs on both sides. Do the Renegades only have a tab on one side?

    Monday, July 31, 2017 at 8:09:00 PM EDT

    Anonymous said...
    That is normal for a renegade trim tab on take off. I have over 1000 hrs in Lakes and you need that nose up trim, especially with 3 people on board. I noticed the flaps more than anything, they are up. Flaps have to be down for take off.

    Monday, July 31, 2017 at 8:48:00 PM EDT

    Anonymous said...

    No flaps, checklist was not used for sure. Buccaneers and Renegades need flaps on takeoff. Renegade only has one trim tab, counteracts torque on takeoff.

    Tuesday, August 1, 2017 at 9:12:00 AM EDT

    Anonymous said...

    As a witness to this horrific event it really should never had happened there were speculations of the aircraft taking on water after the landing and later being pumped out at the docks, after advice of not leaving yet and seeing what may be wrong. The decision was made that they wanted to leave, the water conditions were not the best but doable. The plane actually became slightly airborne before the left wing dipped and flipped the aircraft. There were two volunteers in the water and on scene no more than three mins after the crash took place, and it was one of these two volunteers that were injured in the attempt to free the passengers.

    Wednesday, August 2, 2017 at 12:50:00 AM EDT

    Anonymous said...

    For the two volunteers = Absolute savage bravery. The courage it takes to jump in, thinking hey the authorities probably have this, but no YOU two were that day. It's great that heroism like this still exists in the United States of America.
    
    Wednesday, August 2, 2017 at 6:23:00 AM EDT

    Anonymous said...

    That trim position is normal for a Lake. However, the flaps were not down, and you can see from the elevator position and nose high attitude on the water (first pic) that he's trying to pull it off the water. This is bad...the most critical thing in a Lake on the water is to maintain a level attitude at all times - he likely hit a wake just before the second picture, was already pulling and nose high, and got flung into the air with an extreme nose up attitude with no flaps and airplane unable to fly as a result. At that point he was doomed...

    Wednesday, August 2, 2017 at 8:47:00 AM EDT

    Anonymous said...

    Sad that life was lost. They drowned which is even worse. Several bad decisions led to this crash. Water in the plane, flaps not set for takeoff and not listening to others about not taking off. I was not at the sea plane base that day but heard from several professionals that were. A pilot with that many hours should know to use the checklist. But he probably got complacent and didn't take advice from fellow aviators telling him not to takeoff.

    Wednesday, August 2, 2017 at 2:32:00 PM EDT

    Anonymous said...

    The flap on the left wing may be down and on the right is up. Airborne the left wing would develop lift and drive the right wing into the water.

    Wednesday, August 2, 2017 at 6:00:00 PM EDT

    mouser485 said...

    I have a question about the trim tab. When I use "nose up" trim on the 172, the trim tab actually moves down which cause the elevator to be deflected upward thus tending to raise the nose of the plane. Since that trim tab is up on the seaplane wouldn't it deflect the elevator down thus causing the nose to push downward ?
    Wednesday, August 2, 2017 at 9:47:00 PM EDT
    Jim B said...

    Sad ending. Too many compromises.

    That bird was already sitting too low in the water at the dock. I do not see the waterline marks. I would offer it was not airworthy.

    The flaps not down in the correct position was another serious error. The clean wing stalls at a higher speed.

    On breaking the water it likely there was a serious aft CG with the water issue and pitched up rapidly. The wing that stalled first would be the one to go into water first.

    The water looks relatively smooth. I would not blame a wave.

    Rest in peace friends.

    Thursday, August 3, 2017 at 11:32:00 PM EDT

    Anonymous said..
    .
    Way too much pitch/over-rotation at liftoff.

    Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 4:48:00 PM EDT

    Anonymous said...

    As a Lake owner and pilot having over 1700 hours in type, I see way too much uninformed speculation here that does not serve anybody well. A Lake is not a Cessna and has totally different dynamics. Likewise for the trim system. I have my own thoughts about the cause of the accident but I will keep them private and wait for the NTSB report and I urge others to refrain from speculating.

    I knew Ray Johnson and he was a wonderful man who will be sorely missed. Rest In peace Ray, we love you.

    Wednesday, August 9, 2017 at 8:29:00 AM EDT

    Anonymous said...

    This message is for the last commenter - And, what about Diane? This wonderful, loving, caring woman did not deserve to be killed in such vicious smothering way in a coffin-like plane with a obstinate pilot in command.

    Who the hell are you tell the public visitors of this aviation blog to "refrain from speculating"!?!? We, pilots and aircraft owners, learn from our mistakes, and we use this aviation site to investigate practices and procedures, discuss openly the incidents/accidents, for our safe flights. And look forward to insight (comments) from other pilots/aircraft owners, whether you like it or not.

    This isn't the Lake Amphibian Club, where you pay $62.00 and get to bully pilots and aircraft owners around. This is a volunteer aviation blog.

    "As a Lake owner and pilot having over 1700 hours in type, I see way too much uninformed speculation here that does not serve anybody well. A Lake is not a Cessna and has totally different dynamics. Likewise for the trim system. I have my own thoughts about the cause of the accident but I will keep them private and wait for the NTSB report and I urge others to refrain from speculating. I knew Ray Johnson and he was a wonderful man who will be sorely missed. Rest In peace Ray, we love you."

    Wednesday, August 9, 2017 at 10:08:00 AM EDT

    Doug Trout said...

    Amen...

    I find it funny how many cowards show up here under the cloak of anonymity thinking they can tell others to shut up with their speculation. An anonymous Lake Owner is equivalent of me having a 747 in my back yard.

    The mere fact there were that many people on the dock begging them not to leave (you can see them in my pictures) should tell what you need to know about your friend. You may feel the need to protect his good name here but the facts established so far are the facts. He may have been a wonderful man who made a series of terrible mistakes.

    When have you ever witnessed a pilot getting talked to by a group of people begging him not to depart?

    Wednesday, August 9, 2017 at 10:14:00 AM EDT

    Anonymous said...

    LOL! "wait for the NTSB report". LOL!

    I have zero time or interest in waiting years, and I do mean years, for the NTSB final determination. Instead, I gravitate toward open and transparent communication (commentary) from folks who fly either professionally and/or recreation on the how's and why's the aircraft crashed.... right here and current.

    Your pal, Ray, he risked the lives of others. Negligence = lawsuits.
    Wednesday, August 9, 2017 at 10:42:00 AM EDT
    Anonymous said...

    Just a few of the numerous headlines about Ray's aviator skills:

    "Pilot killed in Lake Winnebago plane crash took off despite rough water warning"

    "Pilot Was Warned of Rough Water Before Crash"

    "NTSB: Seaplane pilot was warned of rough water before crash"

    Wednesday, August 9, 2017 at 11:37:00 AM EDT

    Doug Trout said...

    THE FIVE HAZARDOUS ATTITUDES

    1. Anti-Authority:
    "Don't tell me."

    This attitude is found in people who do not like anyone telling them what to do. In a sense, they are saying, "No one can tell me what to do." They may be resentful of having someone tell themwhat to do, or may regard rules, regulations, and procedures as silly or unnecessary. However, itis always your prerogative to question authority if you feel it is in error.

    2. Impulsivity:
    "Do it quickly."

    This is the attitude of people who frequently feel the need to do something, anything, immediately. They do not stop to think about what they are about to do; they do not select the best alternative, and they do the first thing that comes to mind.

    3. Invulnerability:
    "It won't happen to me."

    Many people feel that accidents happen to others, but never to them. They know accidents can happen, and they know that anyone can be affected. They never really feel or believe that they will be personally involved. Pilots who think this way are more likely to take chances and increase risk.

    4. Macho:
    "I can do it."

    Pilots who are always trying to prove that they are better than anyone else are thinking, "I can do it –I'll show them." Pilots with this type of attitude will try to prove themselves by taking risks in order to impress others. While this pattern is thought to be a male characteristic, women are equally susceptible.

    5. Resignation:
    "What's the use?"

    Pilots who think, "What's the use?" do not see themselves as being able to make a great deal of difference in what happens to them. When things go well, the pilot is apt to think that it is good luck. When things go badly, the pilot may feel that someone is out to get me, or attribute it to bad luck. The pilot will leave the action to others, for better or worse. Sometimes, such pilots will even go along with unreasonable requests just to be a "nice guy."


    From the NSTB initial report.

    The airplane arrived at 96WI about 1230 on the day of the accident. The airplane landed on Lake Winnebago to the south of the seaplane base and the pilot requested assistance during taxi because the airplane was taking on water in the left wing sponson. Boats were utilized to assist the airplane to the dock area. The left wing sponson was subsequently drained of water and the sponson fuel tank, which was a separate tank isolated inside the sponson, was also emptied. The airplane was subsequently moored and the airplane appeared to sit normally in the water. No additional issues were noted with the airplane or sponson taking on water prior to the airplane departing for the accident flight.

    Personnel present at 96WI expressed concern to the pilot regarding the rough water conditions later in the afternoon. At one point the pilot was taken out on the lake by boat to observe the conditions on the lake. A witness onboard the boat described the waves being 1 ½ to 2 ft at that time. The pilot then asked to be taken back to the dock and to have the airplane fueled. The airplane was refueled, but no fuel was put into either sponson tank.

    The pilot later approached the sea base staff and indicated he was ready for departure. The harbor master towed the seaplane from the dock, through a narrow gap from the base to the bay referred to as "the cut", and into the bay outside the sea base. The pilot told the harbor master he was going to start the engine as the plane was being towed through the cut, and the harbor master held up a finger to indicated not yet and to wait a minute. The pilot reportedly asked him to start the engines several more times as the airplane was still under tow before the tow rope had been disconnected, and the harbor master indicted to him to wait each time. Once the tow ropes were disconnected and the harbor master moved out of the way to the side, the pilot started the airplane engine and the airplane "went to full power within two seconds."

    Wednesday, August 9, 2017 at 11:47:00 AM EDT

    Gary Silver said...

    The aircraft at the dock appears to me to be about the right depth in the water. These aircraft have about 14-18 inches of freeboard at the door combing based on loading. Usually your but is below the waterline when seated. This is typical of most Lakes Flying boats appear to be deep in the water compared to float planes. I recall the first time I saw a Grumman Mallard ramp into the water from land, I couldn't believe how deep it sat in the water. I thought it was going to sink, but obviously it didn't.

    The trim tab in the pictures is in the proper position for takeoff. The high center of thrust from the pylon mounted engine tries to push the nose over at takeoff power (unlike a tractor engine mounted aircraft) and thus there needs to be a lot of nose up trim at high power settings.

    The trim tab is fixed to the horizontal stabilizer and has induced airflow from the prop wash as well as from forward speed. It is not fixed to the elevator itself like the trim tab fixed to the elevator on other types of aircraft.

    Water aircraft (float planes or flying boats) need precise attitude control when taking off from and alighting on the water. Extremes of attitude (as seen in one of the pictures) are not tolerated in water operations. To my view, in all the pictures there is no indication that either flap was extended, (no evidence of asymmetric flap extension as one poster envisioned). This aircraft with flaps (normal ops) will fly at 55-60 knots. Density altitude wouldn't seem to be a factor, rough water is very uncomfortable but this to me seems to be more of a lack of flaps with inadequate attitude control rather than directly related to the rough water. Speculation of course.

    Any way you look at it this was tragic and may all those involved recover and/or rest in peace.

    Wednesday, August 9, 2017 at 10:49:00 PM EDT

    Anonymous said...

    Examine the tone of the message:

    "A Lake is not a Cessna"
    "I am a Lake owner"
    "I have 1700 hours in type"
    "I see way too much uninformed"
    "I have my own thoughts"
    "I will keep them private"
    "I urge others to refrain"
    "I knew Ray"

    Even money 'ole Ray exhibited the same arrogance, superior, self-important, egoistic, unpleasant way toward other people (esp. harbormaster) behavior as the above commenter from Lake Amphibian Club. Ray could have wiped-out the entire dock full of innocent bystanders!

    Thursday, August 10, 2017 at 6:49:00 AM EDT

    Jim B said...

    Nice post Gary.

    Good to have a technically oriented and experienced person comment.

    Jim
     
  9. Juan-Manuel Fantango

    Juan-Manuel Fantango F1 World Champ
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    #159 Juan-Manuel Fantango, Aug 10, 2017
  10. joker57676

    joker57676 Two Time F1 World Champ

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    #160 joker57676, Aug 10, 2017
    Does anyone else think Juan should start a single thread for his Katheryn's Report posts? Do we really need a new thread for every accident. It would be like a blog about a blog and seems appropriate.




    Mark
     
  11. Nurburgringer

    Nurburgringer F1 World Champ

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    #161 Nurburgringer, Aug 10, 2017
    +1
     
  12. Juan-Manuel Fantango

    Juan-Manuel Fantango F1 World Champ
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    #162 Juan-Manuel Fantango, Aug 10, 2017
    That's good, do we have an accident thread? Let's consolidate.
     
  13. GuyIncognito

    GuyIncognito Nine Time F1 World Champ
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    #163 GuyIncognito, Oct 5, 2017
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