Aviation question ...

Discussion in 'Other Off Topic Forum' started by twinturbo, Jun 28, 2004.

  1. twinturbo

    twinturbo Karting

    Nov 10, 2003
    My dad is thinking about taking flying lessons and getting his license ... knowing him and his impulse buys I'm doing the research for him ... what do you guys think of this plane for a beginner or pro for that matter?

    On edit ... it doesn't have to be a single engine ... so if you guys know of a better company or performance all info would be great so I can look into to it and get him brochures ... I'm not too sure about price range so let's say $800K is the max ...

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  3. Kds

    Kds F1 World Champ

    How about a "real" plane instead......for about $500K USD you get a totally refurbished "glass cockpit" aircraft.

    One of my clients just got his pilot's license in one.....never flown before.....bought the airplane......hired an ex-Marine fighter jock to teach him and took off.

    I've got a flight awaiting me.....when he gets about 200 hours and the ejection seats are hot that is.
  4. thadbrown

    thadbrown Karting

    Nov 3, 2003
    i am learning in a cessna 172 sp which is a great plane not the fastest out there. the cessna is the civic of the aviation world. at the other airport near me one can rent a cirrus but they have to have a high performance check out in it as well as minimum hours. i heard that the new 172's will have a glass cockpit option. if you love your father have him learn to fly in something other than the cirrus then he should buy the plane. thats my story and i am sticking to it.
  5. VWH3RD

    VWH3RD Formula Junior

    Jan 22, 2003
    Cherry Hill, NJ
    The Cirrus is a good airplane and something that he could learn to fly in and then use for a decent traveling machine.

    People will say that you need to learn in a trainer but if money is not an issue I believe in learning in a more advanced airplane that you will actually fly later.

    I learned in a Mooney 201 and people all thought I was crazy but I think it was better in a more advanced airplane. It will take more time and money in a non trainer but after you get a license you shopuld be more capable than the guy in the trainer.

  6. PeterS

    PeterS Three Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Jan 24, 2003
    Full Name:
    If you dad is in a position to drop $800K on a plane, he can afford to rent while he takes lessons. He should spend $3-$5K in lessons and rentals before he buys. This will give him the opportunity to fully understand if he will like flying and give him a taste of a few different types of aircraft.

    If he does tha above, he should learn to fly in a Cessna 172 with updated NAV equipment, nothing more. At the end of his $5K, he will be a licensed pilot. At that time, he can look at purchasing a Cessna 182RG or a decent Piper while keeping his total investment well under $100K for a very airworthy craft. He can always drop and extra $100K and get something newer and sexier.

    I owned a '68 Cessna 150 and a '78 172. Both were great planes. The 150 I bought for $16.5K and $50K for the 172. There are great bargains out there, but the mainenance does add up! He may buy a decent plane and lease it back to an FBO to recoup some of the expenses.
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  8. twinturbo

    twinturbo Karting

    Nov 10, 2003
    Thanks for the response ...

    Let me get the jist of it :

    Learn to fly in a cheaper trainer w/o all the gadgets (provided by the school) and it will be faster and easier

    Learn to fly in a more expensive tech advanced plane (must purchase initially) it will be longer and more difficult but in the long run worth it? and much more knowledgable than the ladder ....

    Renting? Is this for the purpose of trying out different planes for the later purchase ....

    If I know my dad well he alway's wants the best especially when it comes to safety ... after I mentioned the airplane had a parachute he was much more eager to get a plane ... so having the most advanced gizmos will be on his criteria ...

    Correct me if I'm wrong ... the best thing to do is purchase the plane and hire a private instructor ?

    Once again thanx for all the feedback,
  9. thadbrown

    thadbrown Karting

    Nov 3, 2003
    with proper training you wouldnt need the parachute. if you do need to use the chute the plane will be pretty much totalled. you can not take the wings off of a cirrus to get it out of a location. also the body will be trashed from it slamming into the ground. yes it is a cool plane but your dad should learn to fly in something else. my dad is also looking at a cirrus but has decided to train in a 172 first. you wouldnt put a 16 year old into an f40 would you? if he is looking for a cool plane check out the liberty xl2. they are built in melbourne florida. cool little plane.
  10. PerryJ

    PerryJ Formula 3

    Jun 5, 2003
    N. Alabama
    Full Name:
    John Perry
    Having spent half my life around airplanes, I second everyone else here, rent for at least 100-200 hrs then make a purchase, most aircraft have roles they are tailored too depending on the flying that will be done, how far, how often, how many passengers, what kind of weather are all important factors that go into aircraft purchases, but a beginner in ANY 800K aircraft is a FAST track to disaster !! best start out slow and and move up, great singles can be had for 100-200k Archers, moonys, and Bonanzas (my personal fav) all make GREAT first time aircrafts for people in his shoes. All are VERY well built, can take fair amount of weather, super easy to fly. And have been around for decades. Sure the Cirrus is a great airplane but it is VERY VERY over priced, you can get a single engine turbo-prop for the same money.
  11. cairns

    cairns Formula Junior

    Nov 13, 2003
    Potomac MD
    Full Name:
    George Williams
    Buying an $800K airplane before you learn how to fly is like buying a Ferrari before you've learned how to drive....not very smart IMO.
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  13. Dr C

    Dr C Formula Junior

    Dec 1, 2002
    Kansas City
    Full Name:
    Your Dad is going to need a LOT of money if he's going to purchase an 800k airplane to train in because he'll never get insurance on it. Most of the expensive planes require a certain number of hours before you can get insurance on it. My flight instructor has a beautiful Cessna 340 twin, presurized with a/c, DVD for entertainment, etc., and he didn't pay anywhere near 800k for it. He has to have a week of training on a simulator every year in order to keep his insurance. He's got his commercial ratings, ATP, and CFI II.

    We have a Piper Archer (with great NAV) and it's great for me to do my IFR training in. I don't know why you'd want to have a complex, high performance plane, when you don't know how to talk to Center yet.

    Learn in a nice plane with good nav equipment, but not complex or high performance. I agree with the others -- an 800k plane for a trainer would be like learning how to drive in Chris's F40 -- just a disaster waiting to happen. After your Dad has his IFR rating, he get make a informed decision about which plane he wants to purchase.
  14. gabriel

    gabriel Formula 3

    Amen to all of that brother! Talk about overpriced!

    Guy, your dad is going to blow $800k on a plane before he even learns to fly??

    And start out in an advanced AC? What, like Kennedy? I remember thinking something along those lines when old John McColgan (DE) gave Kennedy his ticket right up here at Flight Safety in Vero.

    Get behind in any aircraft at any time, and you are well on your way to being quickly dead. The advantage of using a trainer is that it is somewhat harder to get behind in than a HiPo AC, where you have less time to correct the many mistakes that you *will* make.

    Of course the cirrus can be set up to do almost all of the flying, and as long as nothing goes wrong, you are usually safer, even if the flights are somewhat more boring. -Thats just my personal observation from flying the Cirrus.

    The most dangerous time in a pilot's life is generally the first 400 hours *after* he gets his ticket. And that's why it's called "The Killing Zone."

    BTW, the deployment of Caps causes severe damage to the AC. My insurance agent states that around 90K in damage is expected. Now, I've never audited the damages incurred in CAPS(cirrus) or BRS deployment in other aircraft, but in the cirrus the parachute is deployed by a rocket blowing the chute pack right through the composite skin, and the shrouds rip out right through the skin as well.

    800k? Heck, I'd be looking at a jet...
  15. twinturbo

    twinturbo Karting

    Nov 10, 2003
    Thanks for the feedback again ...

    I should of stated his budget is from $0 - $800K ... that doesn't mean he's going to take the max ... if you guys recommend a $100K plane that would meet all the needs of a trainer that would be fine also ... most our trips will be from Dallas to Houston to Oklahoma and the occassional LA trip ... business in Texas and vacation home in LA ... I would love for him to get a plane because if it's anything like his boat it'll just sit there and eventually I'll take it ...

    Thanks again,
  16. Erik330

    Erik330 Formula Junior

    May 8, 2004
    If it flies, floats, or f**ks; rent, don't buy.

    We charter a Piper Super Malibu (single turboprop) or a King Air for business and occasional pleasure trips. Our pilot has 8000 hours of flying time, the aircraft are meticulously maintained and either one can go above the majority of the weather.

    I travel extensively on business and cannot justify owning my own plane. I flew for years when younger but the combination of weather, tougher FAA rules, my own business pace, etc. would be a safety nightmare. I'd rather rent and let someone else drive, it's not like a car, there are a lot of rules to follow.

    Your dad sounds like someone who might benefit from chartering for a while and flying right seat with an experienced pilot. My trip to the Eastern Shore of Maryland on a Friday night a few weeks ago made clear what a PITA flying is as we were routed down, left, right, etc between Washington DC and Baltimore.
  17. richard_wallace

    richard_wallace Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed

    Feb 6, 2004
    Cincinnati, Ohio
    Full Name:
    Richard Wallace
    Another route for that kind of cabbage (800K) - Get a decent Time share on a challenger2 or Lear - your whole family can fly in absolute luxury - and you don't have to mess with flying yourself - leaving it to the professionals.

    In a previous life (good old days of technology) we had 2 shared aircraft - and flew 2 - 3 times per week - just pull up to the hanger, get on - take off - have a car waiting to pick you up at your destination... That is the best.

    Other problems with owning your own plane - to fly something like you are looking at - is going to be at least one year pretty much full time getting all your certs.

    Mantainance is killer - and you have to have it due to regs.
    Personal insurance - can be an issue as mentioned
    Aircraft insurance - can be an issue
    Storage, etc. etc. etc.

    The other route to look at is for him to join a club - get in with a group 3 - 12 people depending on how much you want to use it - each splitting the costs, maintenance, time, etc. And you can get into groups of many types of planes - from Cessna 172 on up - depending on the group.

    Renting is a good way to go as mentioned - haven't done it in a while - but I think for the basic Cessnas you would pay ~60 dollars per air hour when you take them out/trips - on up for the bigger birds.
  18. Admiral Thrawn

    Admiral Thrawn F1 Rookie

    Jul 2, 2003
    Los Angeles, CA
    Full Name:
    He shouldn't buy anything until he has his license. Preferably an instrument rating and night certification. That way when he does buy a plane, he can fly at night and in bad weather (IFR conditions) if he wants to.

    When it comes to renting a plane while having lessons, I recommend either a Cessna (high-wing, like the 172) or a Piper (low-wing, like the Cherokee) for training.

    I'll just reiterate what others have been saying here: buying an expensive and complex aircraft before you're experienced (as opposed to having just a basic license) is NOT a good idea.

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