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Back to the 360 Challenge v. Stradale issue....

Discussion in '360/430' started by BigHead, Dec 4, 2003.

  1. BigHead

    BigHead Formula Junior

    Oct 31, 2003
    992
    Outside of Boston
    Full Name:
    Dennis
    A couple of months ago, we had a highly entertaining bench racing debate over the topic of which car would be quicker around an average race track - a 360 Challenge race car or a 360 Stradale. From what I can recall, Brian Stradale and Steve Solomon both weighed in with good arguments (alas, can't seem to find it in the archives).

    My personal opinion was that even if the Stradale had more power, and assuming equal tires (slap some slicks on the Stradale for our theoretical lap), the Challenge would easily win on a flying qualifying lap due to its lighter weight and more aggresive suspension set-up.

    This was challenged (no pun intended) by those who pointed to the Stradale's 30 extra horsepower, additional downforce and equivalent weight. These proponents used the "official" weight of the Stradale --2,822 lbs., with fuel.

    I voiced the opinion that there was no way in hell that a street-legal version of the 360, given the weight reduction techniques listed by Ferrari, could shave something like 400 lbs. off the car. No way, no how. Ferrari's official weight reduction claim was 243 lbs., but with 360 Modenas running near 3300 lbs., that would bring the Stradale weight down to ~3050 lbs -- NOT 2,822 lbs. I just chalked up this discrepancy to the fact that the official factory weight for the 360 Modena is probably a ridiculous figure, probably 3050 lbs. or so.

    I bring this topic up again because, in reading the now-controversial Car & Driver article comparing the GT3 v. Ford GT v. Stradale, C&D has kindly provided an actual, as-tested weight for the Stradale.

    Are you ready? Gulp. 3,152 lbs. Maybe C&D adds the weight of a driver to the spec, but that'd be one awfully large guy - 330 lbs. worth. But I don't think C&D measures weight that way; instead, the factory figure is just not quite in sync with reality. Even if you add the weight of the glass instead of lexan side windows, for US spec. Call me cynical.

    Anyway, the argument for the Stradale's superiority was based largely in part on the amazing weight savings (on paper). Did someone provide an actual weight for a 360 Challenge? I believe it's around 2900 lbs. But taking a close look at one, I can believe it's at least a couple of hundred pounds less than even the Stradale - there is no interior, no passenger seat, lexan instead of glass, lighter exhaust, no a/c, etc. etc. etc. Even add in some weight for a roll-cage and conventional brakes, you'd still have a much lighter car.

    So give the Stradale a 30 hp advantage. And even some added downforce. Would that overcome a 200 lbs. weight differential? What about 300 lbs.? And don't forget, the Challenge is set up with a really low track-only suspension, while the Stradale needs to meet all sorts of ride height requirements, as well real-world needs of driveways and such.

    Anyone else care to chime back in? Solly? Brian? :)

    vty,

    --Dennis
     
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  3. Brian C. Stradale

    Brian C. Stradale F1 Rookie
    Lifetime Rossa

    Mar 17, 2002
    3,603
    Dallas, TX, USA
    Yep, I am *very* disappointed in the 3152lb weight reported by C&D. Makes me really hope that 360 was indeed a Ford re-build! But I don't think so (I think Ford was disassembling 360M's, not CS's, given the timing). Given that number is accurate and the carbon brakes are Porsche-like track-unworthy POS brakes, I think I would not have the car on order!

    Anyway, if that weight is accurate, I completely drop my assertion that a CS can hang anywhere near a C... Ferrari is just blowing us BS on its track times along with the weight figure. A 300 to 350 lb weight delta is worth more than 50 horses on track, leaving the CS with less than 0 to make up for the racecar setup.

    My prior assertion was that it was *plausible* that the CS could run with a C, if and only if the CS weighed 2822 to the C's 2800 and much of the CS weight reductions were in unsprung weight (which is worth much more than sprung weight), coupled with the better brakes and aero and the extra 25hp, then you have a legit argument that all that can overcome the racecar setup of the Challenge. If half of that is BS and a quarter of that only lasts until you eat through your rotors in 2500 miles, then you're left with nothing more than a slight improvement on the Modena.

    I am sure hoping that someone put a 300lb weight set in the trunk and nobody from the magazine bothered to open the trunk. I'll definitely be finding some scales to weigh my current Modena and then my soon-to-arrive Stradale. Anyone have a CS and access to scales??? Please??

    Not too happy right now, :(

    Brian
     
  4. ferrarifixer

    ferrarifixer F1 Veteran
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    Jul 22, 2003
    8,520
    Melbourne
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    Phil Hughes
    I haven't weighed a Stradale, but standard 360 challenge cars with no fuel do weigh the claimed 1170kg or 2580 lbs.

    If a Stradale does weigh 1270kg or 2800lbs as claimed, then I think the extra power/torque, and downforce would make a chunk of time up.

    The brakes would be interesting to compare, Challenge brakes are awesome even std, but get much more durable with grooved discs and decent pad material. I've not raced with std discs/pads for 3 years so can only say .........

    that over one lap there's not much in it, but over 20 or 30...the challenge with grooved discs and decent pads is untouchable.

    I'll hopefully get a chance to give more info soon, as a few stradale's will surface in Australia shortly.....
     
  5. thomas_b

    thomas_b Formula Junior

    Sep 15, 2003
    765
    The claimed curb weight in the owner’s manual of the CS is 3000 lb

    My CS did come in at:
    - Total 3096 lb
    - LF weight 632
    - RF weight 657
    - LR weight 898
    - RR weight 909
    - Front 1289 41.6%
    - Cross 1550 50.2%
    - Right 1566 50.5%

    The same measurements with me at the wheel came in at:
    - Total 3283 lb
    - LF weight 704
    - RF weight 690
    - LR weight 940
    - RR weight 930
    - Front 1394 42.4%
    - Cross 1650 50.2%
    - Right 1620 49.3%

    Since I did not want to corner balance the car no special care was taken to ensure that the scales are level; some of the individual results may be off.

    Dry weight would be around 2916lb (measured) or 2820lb (manual) assuming (30gallons x 5.6 pounds).

    Based on Brian’s thread “Fiorano Track times …” I have a hard time to see how the CS can hang with the Challenge car:

    0'56"33 F2003-GA (2003, MS)
    0'58"38 F2002 (2002, MS)
    0'59"00 F1 310B (1997, MS)
    1'00"31 F1 412T1 (1994, Alesi)
    1'11"90 Ferrari 333SP (slicks)
    1'18"90 360 N-GT
    1'22"30 Enzo (2003)
    1'22"40 360 Challenge
    1'25"40 355 Challenge (1997?, wing, slicks, Nicola Larini)
    1'26"50 355 Challenge (1995, no wing, streets)
    1'27"00 F50
    1'28"00 F50 (1995)
    1'28"00 360 Challenge Stradale
    1'29"60 F40
    1'30"00 F40 (1987)
     
  6. bumboola

    bumboola Formula Junior

    Mar 7, 2003
    625
    Thomas,

    How much fuel was in the tank?
     
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  8. Aircon

    Aircon Eight Time F1 World Champ
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    Jun 23, 2003
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    Peter

    Well, we all know that a Modena does a 1.30 at Fiorano and I normally say that the CS doing it 2 seconds faster would be great, if it weren't for the fact that the CS comes with Pirelli Corsa tyres, which would be worth at LEAST that much in time! How disappointing.
     
  9. thomas_b

    thomas_b Formula Junior

    Sep 15, 2003
    765
    full

    - thomas
     
  10. loungedog

    loungedog Formula Junior

    Nov 6, 2003
    286
    New Market, Ontario
    Thomas...very helpful information. A few questions: Does your car have 5 MPH bumpers installed in lieu of the 2.5 MPH as in the US? There may be some weight in them. I was also wondering if your car had the factory stereo, roll bar, fire ex, or anything else that may have added some weight to your Stradale?
     
  11. thomas_b

    thomas_b Formula Junior

    Sep 15, 2003
    765
    It is an US car so assume the 2.5 mph bumpers (and the inside looks massive) - I have the fire ex. (~8lb I assume) and the SR7 & ZR3 Radar detector - otherwise only the OEM stuff (tools, flat tire fix, etc.)
     
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  13. John B

    John B Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    May 27, 2003
    1,549
    NJ
    Thomas,
    Thanks for posting the weight of your CS. That will help to clear up some of the issues. Now we need the weight of a 360M. I may take mine and put it on the scales.
     
  14. Brian C. Stradale

    Brian C. Stradale F1 Rookie
    Lifetime Rossa

    Mar 17, 2002
    3,603
    Dallas, TX, USA
    Really? Or are you just rounding here? What *exactly* does the owner's manual say the weight is???

    The sales brochure claims 1280kg (2822 lbs) with fuel and 1180kg (2601 lbs) without fuel! That is sooooo disappointing. I was hoping for the super-light road car that Ferrari was advertising it to be!

    So, given the Modena owner's manual says 3086lbs and the CS owner's manual says 3000lbs, where does Ferrari get off saying they've saved 110kg (242 lbs)?? Such blatant BS! :(

    I think I need to write Ferrari and demand a refund of $11,000 (6% of weight, 6% of purchase price)! ;) Or maybe I should go with 35% of weight savings, 35% of price premium? ;)


    Nice balance... but even fatter!... and even more disappointing!! Maybe that's a 96 lb fire extinguisher... I'll just get rid of that! ;) :(

    Thomas, do you have leather or alcantara? (reaching, I know, but leather is pretty heavy... no idea on alcantara) Hmmm... Leather vs Alcantara plus Glass vs Lexan plus Extinguisher... no, that's still not 156 lbs. :(


    Actually, gasoline weighs 6 lbs/gallon (well, it can vary from 5.8 to 6.5) and a 360 holds 25.1gal of gas, so 151 pounds of gasoline. (Again, where does Ferrari get their numbers? They have 25.1 gal of fuel weighing a staggering 100kg (220lbs)! )

    So, the owner's manual weight without fuel is 2849lbs versus the sales literature quote of 2601lbs. Sheesh. Such BS! :( Not to mention that even the owner's manual weight is low.


    Obviously, it can't even come close. Worse, I doubt seriously it can do the Ferrari-quoted 3.5s faster at Fiorano. It might weigh 90 lbs less and maybe 25hp more... but that's no 3.5s. Sure, half of that 90 lbs might be unsprung weight, which is worth a lot... but still, that's not 3.5s. Such BS! :(


    Sorry... I'm a tad irked... I hate being lied to... :( I'll get over it... next week. ;)
     
  15. WCH

    WCH F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Mar 16, 2003
    5,179
    "The claimed curb weight in the owner’s manual of the CS is 3000 lb"

    Still relatively light compared to today's sports cars, but a lot more than the Geneva show brochure claimed kerb weight of 1280 kg/2822 lb. I had thought about ordering the car without a/c, and now wish that I had.
     
  16. Gary(SF)

    Gary(SF) F1 Rookie

    Oct 13, 2003
    3,637
    Los Altos Hills, CA
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    Gary B.
    Brian -

    My guess is much of the 3.5 sec advantage would come from the Corsa tires...although even with Corsas the CS didn't pull as many skidpad g's as the GT3 on Michelin Pilot Sports (I'm going from memory, that's right isn't it?) in C&D, and wasn't any faster on the road course. I've read good reports on the Corsas elsewhere, perhaps the set on the C&D car were cooked? Too many heat cycles and these soft tires just die.

    Gary
     
  17. Brian C. Stradale

    Brian C. Stradale F1 Rookie
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    Mar 17, 2002
    3,603
    Dallas, TX, USA
    Possibly... though I've yet to see Pirellis that were even half as good as their hype.

    Yep... got smoked... and by a rear-engine car... bit embarrassing.

    Yep... and if the Stradale really had R tires on while the GT3 had street tires, then the GT3 is a 2-3s faster car! Though other magazines have put a bigger margin in favor of the Stradale.

    Perhaps... but they say they went through, what was it, eight sets of tires... so, I wonder if they were replacing them with new Corsas? Given the impact of tires, it always amazes me when an article doesn't bother to mention what tires each car had... definitely shows their lack of any car expertise.
     
  18. thomas_b

    thomas_b Formula Junior

    Sep 15, 2003
    765
    Brian you are a bitter man :) - my suggestion for remedy is to drive the Stradale – I quoted the exact owner’s manual number

    I think we have messed up some numbers: - weight Modena is 3234lb, the weight for the CS without fuel was my calculation based on 30 US gallons, …)

    Here is a quick reset to summarize the numbers:

    ........................................Stradale .........................Modena
    Marketing Numbers
    ----------------------------
    Curb weight with fuel...........1280kg....2816lb..................-.............-
    Curb weight without fuel.......1180kg....2596lb..................-.............-
    Fuel ...................................100kg.....220lb..................-.............-

    Owner’s Manual
    ----------------------------
    Curb weight with fuel ...........1360kg....3000kg............1470kg....3234lb

    Measured
    ----------------------------
    Curb weight with fuel............1404kg.....3096lb............?kg..........?lb

    1.) Marketing vs. OM
    The 80kg/184lb difference is significant, but that is marketing. I first though that it could be the A/C but I would be surprised if it is more than 40lb? One could argue that they talked about a race prepared car (no tools, etc) - but it does not add up.

    2.) OM: CS vs Modena
    This shows the weight saving of the CS over the Modena claimed by Ferrari – its on paper – however one thing that adds up.

    3.) Measured vs. OM
    44kg / 96lb difference is a lot. No idea what the reason is. I have the Alcantara interior. Only addition is the fire extinguisher. The scales might be off but by over 3%???

    I hope someone can measure a Modena. I hope that will get us back to the weight saving claimed by Ferrari.
     
  19. thomas_b

    thomas_b Formula Junior

    Sep 15, 2003
    765
    don't forget the carbon brakes - they have hugh stopping power and should fade less
     
  20. Brian C. Stradale

    Brian C. Stradale F1 Rookie
    Lifetime Rossa

    Mar 17, 2002
    3,603
    Dallas, TX, USA
    Not bitter... just very disappointed. I want a 2800# 360!

    Not according to my Owner's Manual! Right in front of me, in black and white, it says curb weight with fuel is 3086lbs. Where do you get your number for the Modena?


    A/C is standard; more likely, part of it is Lexan windows... but I wouldn't think they weigh 184lb. If they do, then I sure wish they'd have given us old-fashioned crank windows with a Lexan instead of glass. Maybe that they could have gotten through DOT.

    If it is all due to the glass and power motors, then that is good in a way... I can fix it! I'm not hauling around 184# in glass!

    Not per my OM! We're only 86lbs apart here, which is 148lbs off!

    I like the idea of scales being off! ;) I'll pin my hopes there.

    Sigh,

    Brian
     
  21. thomas_b

    thomas_b Formula Junior

    Sep 15, 2003
    765
    it is the PDF file of the owner manual - downloaded form the Ferrari owner site

    right in front of me US Modena MY 2003

    curn weight 3240lb (1470Kg)
     
  22. Gary(SF)

    Gary(SF) F1 Rookie

    Oct 13, 2003
    3,637
    Los Altos Hills, CA
    Full Name:
    Gary B.
    Fade resistance will only become a factor after at least several laps. As long as you have enough braking power to invoke abs with the steel brakes, carbon brakes have no real advantage in stopping distance. Presumably the best lap times would be measured before any fade occurred with the steel brakes. The carbon brakes weigh less, so there is also a small lap time advantage with the weight difference, especially since it's unsprung weight, but I still think the biggest factor is the tire.

    Gary
     
  23. Brian C. Stradale

    Brian C. Stradale F1 Rookie
    Lifetime Rossa

    Mar 17, 2002
    3,603
    Dallas, TX, USA
    Interesting. Soooo... either:

    1) the 360 got heavier (per the OM) in successive years (mine is MY2000)

    2) Euros are lighter than US models (mine is a Euro)


    I'd do this myself except the Ferrari manuals are Windows-only... and I'm on a Mac right now...

    Can someone look at the various manuals and report:
    1) curb weight in a 2000 Euro manual (to check online vs. real)
    2) curb weight in a 2003 Euro manual (to check #2 above)
    3) curb weight in a 2000 US manual (to check #1 above)

    Thanks!
     
  24. Gary(SF)

    Gary(SF) F1 Rookie

    Oct 13, 2003
    3,637
    Los Altos Hills, CA
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    Gary B.
    Currently, Ferrari North America website shows curb weight for the 360 at 3064 lbs. They show "dry weight" 2843 lbs.

    Gary
     
  25. thomas_b

    thomas_b Formula Junior

    Sep 15, 2003
    765
    Euro 3086lb (1400kg)
    US 3240lb (1470kg)

    the US versions have all the same weight

    70kg for the emission stuff and maybe bumpers?

    shhh - I buy a Modena Euro for less and get the same weight as my CS

    anyhow US conversion will add the stuff back in again I assume

    I think we have it solved now - marketing data uses Euro weight
     
  26. Aircon

    Aircon Eight Time F1 World Champ
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    Jun 23, 2003
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    Peter
    OMG FINALLY somebody gets it!!! I just hate it when people get in a car that's had bigger brakes fitted and rave about how much shorter the braking distance is. Everybody please note, the limiting factor in stopping distance is tyre grip! (until you get fade) OK??
     
  27. Brian C. Stradale

    Brian C. Stradale F1 Rookie
    Lifetime Rossa

    Mar 17, 2002
    3,603
    Dallas, TX, USA
    Interesting! I'll definitely weigh mine this week... gotta find a scale.

    Can one of you European Stradale owners take a look at your owner's manual and let us know what it lists as curb weight with fuel??


    I don't think the bumpers are different. There is some added emissions stuff, but it would have to be solid gold to be 70kg! Hmmm... I think its time to spend an hour with my parts manual.


    Yeah, in my case, I may not be getting any lighter... gotta go weigh my car!
     
  28. bumboola

    bumboola Formula Junior

    Mar 7, 2003
    625
    Brian,

    Here's a little tidbit for you:

    Car & Driver, 11/99, 1999 360 Modena: 3241 lbs. with full fuel load

    Car & Driver, 09/00, 2000 360 Modena: 3291 lbs. with full fuel load

    The car gained 50 lbs. in one model year, tested on the same scale with a full tank of gas. The 99 car was quite a bit quicker to 150: 2.5 seconds. It's very possible the car has gained even more weight for the 2003 m/y. Car & Driver compared the weight of the 03 Stradale to the 00 360 and it was 139 lbs. lighter.


    BTW Thomas,

    At what rpm does your rev-limiter cut in ?


    Paul
     

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