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Best source for exotic pricing info?

Discussion in 'Ferrari Discussion (not model specific)' started by noahlh, Jan 17, 2004.

  1. noahlh

    noahlh Formula 3

    Aug 28, 2003
    2,225
    NYC, NY
    Full Name:
    Noah
    If I were interested in keeping tabs of the new & used exotic "market" (i.e. actual completed wholesale and/or retail transactions), what would the best source(s) be?

    I'm looking to keep track of pricing changes on late-model Ferraris, Lamborghinis, Porsches, etc. Obviously I'm looking for something a bit more exact than my local classified ads...

    FML? Manheim Market Report? Just calling around to dealers/brokers?

    Any info would be greatly appreciated!

    --Noah
     
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  3. Cavallino Motors

    Cavallino Motors F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    May 31, 2001
    14,143
    Florida or Argentina
    Full Name:
    Martin W.
    Manheim gives you an idea what is going on on the Auctions but these are really not indicators. Regular people do not get in and if you as a dealer buy Auction you buy a box of ch........., you never know what you gona get!

    The true market is out there between eBays low balls and average asking prices on independent lots.
     
  4. Cavallino Motors

    Cavallino Motors F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    May 31, 2001
    14,143
    Florida or Argentina
    Full Name:
    Martin W.
    was nice talking to you BTW Noah. I am still looking :)
     
  5. noahlh

    noahlh Formula 3

    Aug 28, 2003
    2,225
    NYC, NY
    Full Name:
    Noah
    Thanks Martin! Good speaking to you as well...Thanks for keeping your eyes open, and I'll let you know as soon as I'm 100% ready to roll.

    Interesting info on market pricing -- that's kind of what I figured for Manheim. I'd be great if there were a more reliable central source, though.

    Let me ask you this: If someone (i.e. me) were to start collecting data on completed sales, would you as a dealer be willing to contribute (anonymously) to that database in exchange for access to it? (i.e. you tell me what your cars sold for and in exchange get to see what everyone else's cars sold for, graphs of pricing trends, retail vs. wholesale, etc.)

    Just trying to see if there's a need here for more formalized market information...

    --noah
     
  6. tjacoby

    tjacoby F1 Rookie

    Nov 1, 2003
    2,856
    Vancouver Canada
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    tj
    I subscribed to Sports Car Market - it at least shows and rates cars sold to real people at auction with comments. www.sportscarmarket.com

    I also like the uncensored comments about desirability and investment grade.

    We all have this problem, and it's different pricing between regions. Up here in Canada it's a much smaller market with different emission requirements, and weird import rules and practices.

    Also depends heavily on the negotiation skills of the buyer and seller.

    FML just listed auction selling prices for an auction in Switzerland, but few comments on the condition and details of the cars sold. I like FML, but using asking price as the basis for an index is a very rough guideline. And I'm not sure where he's pulling all his #'s from. He's showing 365BB's as increasing in asking price, but hasn't had one listed for sale for some time - so must be using other classifieds as well.

    But so far the most valuable sources I've found is car nuts - both people working in the industry and individuals who like to swap cars often.
     
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  8. El Wayne

    El Wayne Global Moderator
    Global Moderator Owner

    Aug 1, 2002
    17,971
    San Marino, CA
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    L. Wayne Ausbrooks
    Gerald used to post here on F-chat for a while last year and we put this question to him then. This was his response:

    How we calculate the Asking Price Index has been explained many times in the FML. It is the most cussed and discussed aspect of the publication. Yet it is the one thing I have the least control over.

    The figures in the Asking Price Index are calculated using PUBLISHED ASKING PRICES. They are NOT my numbers. They are the numbers the Ferrari selling community (i.e. you) put down, in print, for Ferraris they are trying to sell. In other words, while the FML Asking Price Index numbers are routinely criticized by the Ferrari public they are the Ferrari public's own numbers. These are not MY numbers, they are YOUR numbers!

    I do not use just the ads in the Ferrari Market Letter for these figures. I use other published asking prices as well. Every two weeks all these asking prices are plugged into a table and then the asking price index is calculated. But it is not a simple arithmetic average. The formula first does a simple arithmetic average, and then using that figure eliminates any prices that are unrepresentative, specifically those that fall above or below our 50 percent rule. This eliminates the over-restored unrealistically priced garage queens as well as the rust-bucket restoration projects. There is also a time factor involved, in that the asking prices over the past three months (six issues) are also factored in on a declining scale.

    There are flaws in the system. Because of space limitations we do not break out the models by year, which can be important on newer models although it is irrelevant on the older cars. Nor do variations come into consideration, i.e. a short nose steel body three carb open driveshaft 275 GTB is lumped in with a long nose alloy body six carb torque tube 275 GTB.

    Let me explain the PURPOSE of the Asking Price Index which, by the way, has been published in the FML in one form or another as it was refined, for over 25 years. It was never intended to hold your hand and tell you what you should pay for a Ferrari. It was intended to show price trends. If asking prices are going up, then retail prices are almost certainly going up. If asking prices are going down, then retail prices are almost certainly going down. Many Ferrari buyers are concerned about such trends. Many of them still think Ferraris make good investments, or they at least don't want their car to devaluate too fast.

    One way to use the FML Asking Price Index though is to simply consider this: If you are looking at a particular Ferrari and the seller's asking price is way out of line with the FML API then simply ask WHY? Is it lower because there is something wrong with the car? Or is it higher because it is a pristine, concours-winning 99.5 point car?

    But if you want a value guide then buy a value guide. There are two excellent ones out there (although they get their fair share of criticism as well): The Black Book's Cars of Particular Interest Collectible Vehicle Value Guide published quarterly and the N.A.D.A. Classic, Collectible, and Special Interest Car Appraisal Guide.

    I am aware that in general the FML API figures are "too high" if you insist on ignoring the fact they are ASKING PRICES and not RETAIL PRICES. But isn't it a given fact that "nobody pays asking price"? I thought that haggling on the purchase price and getting the seller to drop the price was part of the buying process!

    Finally, I am often asked why I don't use selling prices. I have been making this offer for years and to date nobody has come up with an answer. Find me a source of verifiable, accurate, Ferrari selling prices, for all models, in sufficient quantity and with a broad geographic range to be statistically viable, and I will use them.
     
  9. ultgar

    ultgar Karting

    Nov 21, 2003
    123
    New Jersey
    Full Name:
    Steve D'Gerolamo
    I've got a friend who buys a lot of Ferrari's at the various auctions....unlike most dealers, he is probably one of the best Ferrari mechanics in the US and knows the cars inside and out. He has many contacts at FNA and is very good friends with a Mr. Buitoni who used to work there. If I were looking for any used Ferrari, this is the guy I'd trust. Contact me directly for specifics.
     
  10. jakermc

    jakermc Formula 3
    Owner

    Jan 17, 2004
    1,778
    Palm Beach, FL
    Full Name:
    Rob

    Ultgar - sent you a pm
     
  11. tjacoby

    tjacoby F1 Rookie

    Nov 1, 2003
    2,856
    Vancouver Canada
    Full Name:
    tj
    Thanks Wayne - I've only been subscribing to FML for a few months now, and I'd seen Gerald's words that it was asking price only. Didn't realize he worked that many variables into his numbers - a lot of work! Definitely useful to see trending info - like the 355's begining to fall in price, 365BB's possibly climbing.
     
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