Better brakes for the Countach

Chad can share the part numbers and help out, but he is not in a position to be marketing parts & services on this site, until he becomes a sponsor.

 

Early Diablos were also the ATE cast 4 piston calipers for the front off the E34 5 series. The rears which had the integral rear e-brake were made by Brembo.

 

Sign me up as someone who would like part numbers for rotors and calipers and anything else required.

And for the less mechanically inclined in the group, detailed instructions on what modifications are required for installation.

Thank in advance!!!

 

And there you go ...

 

Considering the Countach is a sports car built for the street and not the track, and considering that the Countach is an automobile that consists of 70s & 80s components & technology, I find its brakes to be entirely satisfactory with the two-fold proviso that the factory brakes in the car you are driving are working correctly in the first place, and you drive the car with it's production era in mind.

Perhaps I'm one of the few who feels this way, but having driven 1 or 2 different Countachs in any number of situations over the years affording me the opportunity with certain cars to experience what the brakes can do when working properly, I've come to the conclusion that modifying or replacing a Countach's brakes is completely unnecessary, and my advice to anyone who owns a Countach in these times of increasing values is to spend their resources making the factory brakes work like they should.

 

Yeah but your perspective on these cars is very, very different now from what the perspective was back in the day when people actually used these cars as intended. You see them as art and investments now, indeed it's a part of your livelihood. For people who still care to drive them at or near the limit it's much harder to do so because of the enormous changes in demographics, population, regulation and cultural attitudes. One actually does need much better brakes now because of what else is on the roads with you. My wife & I watched Gumball Rally recently having only seen bits and pieces of it over the years. There were a couple of scenes where we burst out laughing because we had actually done the exact same things back then. Now? Even if I was still in my early 30's fuggedaboutit ... I'm still of the mindset for improving what the factory originally got wrong and there was plenty of it. These companies were terribly small and didn't have the budget to do the extensive engineering to ensure the kinds of cars they mostly do produce today. While I'm not enthused with enormously obvious changes that stand out as a heavily modified car I can't say I'm for authentic restoration of designs and equipment which were terribly flawed either. I think many people who drive these cars and don't just garner trophies for a hopefully appreciating asset have a somewhat similar attitude. We are a dying breed I know but I'm much more of the Al Burtoni era than I am of the Joe Sacky era. I think there's room for both approaches though. There's always been both.

 

I agree both views have a place.. as I previously stated, if my car was perfectly original i would rebuild the calipers and move on.. also, just because i want to improve the brakes doesnt mean i plan to use them to their maximum performance. It just means i prefer updated, modern brakes.

 

I agree with all. Originals are pretty good when completely sorted.
Confidence, maybe a little more enjoyable drive.

I was telling another member that roads around here, at least, are tough to drive on. Small state, over crowded roads. Many, many many distracted drivers. The story goes...I was driving one of my other cars. I was driving toward a traffic light as it turned green. I quickly realized that the woman sitting at the light was not going as her head was looking down (most likely texting). I hit the brakes hard. The car behind me hit the horn, the woman in front looked up and floored it.

Moral of the story, the best brake set up is of interest because it might be safer AND is bolt on.

 

Bob, truth is I purchased my first Countach 32 years ago during the production period, have owned and used them as intended ever since, and yet I feel this way. That said, I see where you are coming from.

Peter, that pretty much sums up what I am saying.

I thought it needed to be said in a thoughtful way, because, over time, myths can come become reality if an alternative and experienced view is never shared.

Ken, your points are well-taken, people must do what works for them or makes them comfortable, it's a matter of opinion, and I'd like to share mine.

This thread's title is what got my attention as it may imply to the uninitiated that the Countach in general has inadequate brakes, but that doesn't paint a complete picture.

The brakes are fine for the road as intended if they are working correctly and the driver knows how to drive the car bearing in mind the difference between period 70s & 80s brakes and contemporary brakes. The fact is, many Countachs drive around with brakes that are simply not working well, and our driving habits have changed where we leave little distance between cars and brake late. These are what causes these discussions IMO.

In the course of my work as someone who specializes in these cars, when asked about Countach brakes, I always respond that the proviso for efficient braking is the basic principle that the brake system on your car is working as it should, and by that I mean it should be optimally calibrated, well-maintained and fully operational, before you can truly assess it's adequacy, or lack thereof. With this in mind, with my driving experience of @ 2 dozen Countach covering thousands of miles, knowing what the brakes are capable of on a well-tuned car, I find brake mods on a Countach for road-use are totally unnecessary.

How many Countach owners regularly put their cars on the track or a circuit to the point where brake upgrades are truly warranted? Rhetorical question, the answer is, hardly anybody nowadays. I did put my first Countach Downdraft on the track @ Goodwood in the late 80s/early 90s,a number of times https://www.instagram.com/p/BaCZQLdnSgS/?taken-by=joesackeyclassics and I don't recall the brakes ever being an issue. Okay, I'm a nobody on the track, but multiple Le Mans winner Derek Bell tested a Countach LP500S with standard brakes for Classic & Sports Car magazine in esteemed company including a McLaren F1 and he liked the Countachs brakes. As have other race car drivers who know a thing or two about brakes. The common denominator? Not that they are all racecar drivers, but the fact that they were reporting about cars whose brakes were working correctly. Point being, Countach brakes are not bad if working correctly.

My current Countach Downdraft which has had everything rebuilt during a restoration (pic below), runs on a completely standard setup, and I would actually describe the brakes as quite good for an 80s car. The bottom line is a Countach is a vintage car at @ 28-44 plus years old, so these days it will mostly only ever only be used on the street restricted by legal speeds, it makes sense that the brakes are just fine.

Comparing the Countach brakes with those of other makers, jumping from a 1986 Countach into a 1985 Ferrari (GTO) for example, the brakes from that era are basically the same, you have to anticipate reducing speed and brake early, but thats a feature of 80s era driving, and any competent driver should make adjustments for this.

Taking an 80s car and trying to make it brake like a car from the new millennium is a futile exercise, and I for one have never wanted my Countach to stop like my 2011 997 GT3 RS or 2015 991 GT3 do. When I drive the Countach I want to be transported back to 1986, emotion, sights, sounds, handling, and yes, braking too. That's the point of the whole experience.

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy for anyone who wishes to spend their time & and not inconsiderable expense modding their Countach's brake system for whatever reason they come up with. But, I just don't ever recommend it from a professional viewpoint to those who seek my opinion on Counting brakes. Why? Simply because on balance its not a viable return-on-investment, considering time, money, real improvement, true return-to-originality costs, and the negative effect these modifications have upon a valuable asset. If one cannot resist the temptation to voluntarily part with your hard-earned money and embark upon the quest of brake improvements, a word of advice - make absolutely sure the suspension is in optimum condition otherwise soon you may have both brake & suspension issues as has been discussed elsewhere.

I honestly do think enthusiasts have a tendency to get carried way, by repeating myths that are quite frankly a non-issue. Sometimes its a matter of perspective. You think a Countach's brakes are inadequate? Drive a Miura! It may be a matter of understanding that cars from a different era braked differently, so you adapt your driving style accordingly, and it's worth noting that few Miuras ever dump their brake systems in favor of aftermarket items. I cannot tell you when they changed up from the Girling brakes which my LP400 Periscopes still had to the ATE units the rest of my Countachs have had, but I can tell you that the later cars braked slightly better than the earliest variant for whatever reason, so, when driving the former versus the latter, I simply took this into consideration and made the necessary driving adjustments.

As an aside, I don't think people who prefer a car in standard specification are 'originality zealots' at all! I think they are simply wise to the understanding that the original configuration as designed & tested by the factory engineers at their time & expense is as good as it gets without a whole range of introduced compromises.

In considering this topic, I realize that some people will change everything they get their hands on, they have that tendency, and that's indeed their prerogative. Similarly, certain technicians will always create inventive reasons as to why you should modify your car, but, my message is, lets not use all those perspectives & agendas to suggest that all Countachs need better brakes, nothing could be further from the truth.

By the way, one for my favorite automotive expressions as bandied about in the automotive community is "bolt-on".
Bolt-on implies exactly that, no mods whatsoever. Consequently, "a few small mods" is a contradiction in-terms which means it's actually not a bolt-on, and to many people those few small mods are kind of a big deal.

Another of my favorite automotive expressions is "easily reversible".
Whenever I get offered cars that have been modified, it's interesting to observe that the so-called 'easily reversible' mods are never returned back to stock. Ever. My thoughts are, if the mods are so easily reversible, why didn't the seller return the car to standard prior to selling to gain more money? Makes no sense right? Actually it does, because, the real reason sellers don't return the car to standard is that it's a huge hassle and the mods are not really easily reversible, otherwise they would have done it!

Anyway, forgive my rambling, but if my thoughts help just one single person who has been agonizing over this then they will have been worthwhile posting, all the while I appreciate that there are different legitimate views to this topic.

Meanwhile, my recommendation to any Countach owner is, ensure your standard brakes are working correctly, keep your car out of the shop as much as possible, drive prudently, and enjoy your Countach!

Oh, and never change below 6,000!

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One other thought:

Many people who are concerned about their Countach's brakes have driven just one, or maybe two Countachs, thus affording them a limited scope of experience which may be negatively affected if that singular experience or the few experiences consist of sub-par brakes. One can easily see how it would be understandable for that individual to quickly conclude that "Countach brakes are poor". The point is, you have to drive one with the brakes optimally set up to act as a reference point from which you can decide how you feel.

From a maintenance point of view, as with anything from the era, there are a lot of things that can cause the Countach's standard brakes to be operating below par

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Really .....

 

Besides EBC, Harry Metcalfe mentioned in the Downdraft thread a year and a bit ago that he used Pagid RS42 pads to good effect on his standard brakes, citing their higher friction rating offered a greater braking force for the same pedal weight. He mentioned that he thought he read somewhere it may have improved braking by @ 60%.

The one issue you'll run into using more aggressive pads is the wear effect upon the discs

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For anyone who is interested, Automobili Lamborghini SpA confirms to several different Countavch owners that brake discs are now available to order from the factory again, which is exceedingly good news.

I believe the relevant part numbers are:

003113872 Fronts

003213871 Rears

Unless they have changed the numbers again in the last few months!

I think it’s important Lamborghini are getting previously unavailable Countach parts back into production (and I think Polo Storico is one of the reasons why) as it makes it easier to maintain a car in standard spec. This is good for the car's enjoyment and values.

When we were restoring GLA12997, non-OEM pads were suggested but we decided against them as they can lead to brake disc and eventually suspension issues, and I didn’t think I’d be doing anything too crazy. However, with the new P7s, and with the availability of new discs, I might go for more aggressive pads at some point whilst maintaining completely standard brakes.

 

Good thing factory makes new discs!

Just a pad like that will have more than enough bite and performance for anyone doing spirited runs. The original calipers look amazing too.

Absolutely going to run better pads when the brakes get rebuilt. Key is bedding the whole system in correctly, the first time.

Also drilling into your wheel hub to mount these things is permanent or am I missing something?

 

Underpowered brake systems in fast cars are fu**king terrifying.

 

Other than the cooling hose it's the same basic braking system as on my 84 Biturbo and a lot of BMWs from 77->82. There are oodles of people with vast experience out there using these parts. Putting the Lamborghini label Countach on them doesn't make them particularly special. It's what was available off the shelf back then. The braking system on some of the GT Lamborghinis is a lot more complex (PITA) to service from what I've seen. Avoid having to replace the master cylinders on an Espada if you can ... LOL. But that doesn't speak to the system's effectiveness. Using different pads is a tradeoff of characteristics. They all have consequences/tradeoffs. There are no magic brake pads.

There have been enormous leaps and bounds in technology since then most of which would completely butcher a Countach for originality if utilized. But pads and bigger calipers isn't such an enormous irreversible modification. The setup Chad is offering leaves the hydraulics as is. That's helpful. It would be great to some feedback from anyone who does it.

 

More than that it's dumb. But when driving very fast vintage cars you have to take that into account and not drive them like a modern car. You're driving them for the entire experience. It's amazing how so many $35K modern cars handle well, brake well and go like like hell. They leave most exotics from the 1970;s in the dust except for top speed. But if that's all you're really after then buy a modern one especially if you're going to be in traffic! Trying to take an older exotic car and make it perform like this is a fool's errand, a very expensive one.

 

As I said, I agree. One reason being is that a few years back, Chad and I re-did the brake system on my '71 Jarama GT. The calipers and slave were rebuild but we decided to go with after market boosters. The braking on the car is impressive. Was it the boosters? Or was it just that everything was fresh on the car. I tend to lean with the 2nd. The boosters sure did help but the bite is in the rest.

I would really like to compare a wildwood set up to a well sorted original. Chad is probably the best person to assess since he has both.

My question: besides probably braking better, would one feel the weight savings and in what way?

 

Theoretically the unsprung weight would be reduced how that specifically helps and whether you'd need to retune the suspension I don't know . I think a chassis engineer or racing setup technician would be the best person to ask of that.
More pad with larger calipers has got to help though with the stopping power. Simple physics. My Bora is a capable of much higher braking pressures than a standard braking system due to the Citroen high pressure setup. I've experienced that at the track and never had any brake fade but with enormous stopping power on what are otherwise the same sized pads and rotors as we're talking about here. It's one of the reasons cited by that car's designer Ing. Giulio Alfieri for liking that system and putting it on the Bora and others. He also drove an SM.

So if you're getting better pressure from your new boosters I would think they would work a lot better. I'm still in the middle of that on my Espada. One thing I found out is even though the Girling boosters on mine were not leaking fluid into the vacuum tank and still functioned correctly they had been compromised by water intrusion and were decidedly sub par as a result. Both had vacuum leaks. So absolutely, the systems needs to be in tip top condition to begin with.

 

As we saw in the Pirelli P7 remake thread (does anybody care), it's all about convincing manufacturers & suppliers that many Countach are in fact driven despite the generalization by some to the contrary, and they will respond to positive feedback from enthusiasts that they want & need these parts. I can tell you that's exactly what happened here too, in the end we are better off with the availability of OEM components and I think it helps the values of the cars as well. Social media is helping break down that notion that Countachs are not driven as you can see how many cars are being used regularly. So too, as parts supply improves, more people will have the confidence to use their cars. I believe the factory's current disc offerings are the same vented 11 3/4 diameter, 1 1/4 inches thick, 2 inch hat items same as OEM, and whilst I've no idea of pricing yet, with Countachs valued at what they are today, it'll be a matter of perspective.

Agreed with the pads, it's basically an experiment if you use aftermarket items.

As regards using modern technology on a 70s/80s Countach, not only does it butcher the car somewhat, it completely misses the point IMHO.

So true.

That's my view, I believe it comes down to proper maintenance

Perfectly stated.

I just couldn't help thinking that there might be some who are considering aftermarket brakes who might change their minds if they could get their standard brakes functioning like they can.

 

The proposed caliper upgrades are hardly earth shattering modern technology which is inappropriate on a car like this. It's bolt on too. I'm not sure how this "butchers the car" at all given that it's going to be really hard to even see the calipers except when the wheels are off? If it's a concours going car well then of course the answer would be no. I've been in these cars back when they were new too and at speed. No one thought they had strong brakes back then either. Once they started taking them to the track as older cars versus newer ones in the early 90s the gulf in braking capability became rather pronounced.

 

First thing with ATE calipers is to see that pistons work, they are too narrowly matched for caliper cylinder and it does not take much corrosion to seize piston and this causes brakes to work, but not with full piston area.
BUT... For some reason there huge difference between braking systems made with ATE calipers, for example Testarossa got good brakes for that car, but for some reason even that I have open Countach brakes and see that they work correctly, I do not get similar results for those what my Testarossa deliveres that great first bite.
Even my Mercedes W115 got better brakes, similar four pot ATE caliper, allthough difference with piston size, but far cry discs, from what Countach got.

Only difference what I can think with these differences is that there are huge difference with brake booster or pedal travel. What is odd is that Countach even got vacuum reservoar, but lacks mechanical vacuum pump what Ferrari uses with BB/Testarossa.

 

Bob, perhaps I can be forgiven for borrowing the expression from your own comment in post # 42 above where you said "...would completely butcher a Countach for originality" https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/posts/145977729/ , I simply meant it changes the spirit of the car's intended configuration, IMHO.

That is interesting.

In 1986, when both cars were new and still in production, CAR magazine's experienced tester Steve Cropley drove a Countach Downdraft and a Ferrari Testarossa extensively on both road and track (Castle Combe Circuit) for the April 1986 edition. Naturally both cars had the standard ATE brakes. In the piece entitled "REDS", on page 84, I believe his exact words were:

"When the chips are down, the Countach is quicker, better handling, better braked and nicer to drive".

Shortly thereafter, I myself was able to compare my own Countach with a then-new TR, and my (then inexperienced) sentiments were exactly the same.

 

There is difference in QV brake pedals and in other parts, from January 1987, earlier ones are similar to 5000S and later parts have different part numbers. I don't know, but I suspect they changes pedal and attachment point and lever, more agressive. Brakes are same, when pressed hard and long will result same outcome, they still fade similary, but little change in geometry makes huge difference for that first bite.
Joe sackey; if you have a picture from pre and after 1987 pedal assembly or have change to get both on table with messurements, it would give light to this change of part number middle of production.