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Biting the hand that fed them

Discussion in 'Other Off Topic Forum' started by WJHMH, Apr 7, 2004.

  1. WJHMH

    WJHMH Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Now the clerics that our brothers and sisters have fought to give a voice to and are fighting and dying for are attacking the hand that fed them. This is getting out of hand. This is beyond reason!

    Our civilian contractors are being attacked for no other reason than they are American, and they are in Iraq. Doing thier best to restore the balence of power to the country by training the "new Iraqi" police force and military. Why is this, I don't understand the Muslim struggle that makes us the bad people. Yes, we decalred war on the country of Iraq. We did not decalre war in the Suni Sect nor any other Muslim Sect. This is begining to piss me off, 2 steps forward and 16 steps back.

    We know where the "pockets of resistance" are! Time for a bit of PsyOPS... Leaflet the entire town of Falugia <sp> and where ever this cleric is and simply tell them in the leaflets that if you want to live then leave the town, leave... Deposit any and all of your weapons here, move far away from them, do not hold in hand, place on a hard flat surface, light fuze and get away... or you will be killed. Our wish is to unite your Country! Some will be willing to die for the cause to block progression, are you willing to die for them, if you are not then you need to be aware that we are willing to prosecute criminals, we are also willing to kill terrorists. Falugia <sp> is a target and will be destroyed within XX number of hours...

    I know, this isn't the best answer but I'm just venting. Damn, this is really frusterating, 13 years ago this could have been done to a conclusion but now I'm not so sure that this won't go bad for us in the end. If you even believe things will change after the 30th of June or July when the big change is supposed to take place. The new Iraqi constitution is supposed to be ratified then, I have a cheap bridge to sell you here in Texas that spans both Oceans.
     
  2. maranelloman

    maranelloman Guest

    I like the leaflet idea. But it should be one postcard. On it is a photo of a large mushroom cloud & the word "Tomorrow" in Arabic and Farsi.

     
  3. MarkG

    MarkG Formula Junior

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    It is frustrating from our point of view, but remember:

    1. We are not the hand feeding them; we are invaders. We would react no differently if Iraq has invaded America.

    2. We are the 'bad people' to the Muslim world - we are Christians, capitalists, free to believe and act as we wish within limits, treat women as humnan beings etc.

    3. Suni and other Muslims sects in Iraq don't want to be unified, each sect wants to be the ONLY sect;

    4. Muslims don't fear death like Christians do; dying for Allah is their greatest reward in life and death. That is why you seem Muslims on suicide missions but never see Christians sacrifycing their lives for their beliefs. So the threat of death is not to extreme Muslims what it is to us, suicide in Islam is not a sin but rather a route to the highest possible reward.


    Don't hold your breath for peace in Iraq anytime soon
     
  4. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    LOL! I thought the same thing!

    Throw up a tent city 20 miles from town, hand out sunglasses, then conduct a little ground level test!

    Bet we wouldn't have to do more than one or two.

    If the tent had a light bulb and a water faucet, it'd be a step up!
     
  5. 134282

    134282 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    William, i'm positive that, as human beings, this is the flaw in our DNA... We've somehow managed to build EVERYTHING out of nothing and now we're slowly destroying it... i don't think we'll ever learn from our mistakes as far as life is concerned... Hopefully, when the next ice age hits thousands of years from now, the next species afterwards won't make the same mistakes we made.
     
  6. Tspringer

    Tspringer F1 Veteran

    Apr 11, 2002
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    Mark G.

    1. We ARE feeding them. The majority of Iraqis today are eating due to US aid programs. The security worker civilians killed and mutilated in Fallujah last week were providing security for US food aid agencies. These savages may indeed view us simply as invaders.... but by doing so they show their ignorance because they are indeed biting the hand that feeds them.

    2. You are correct. To the Muslim, we are infidels. The Koran is very clear on how an infidel is to be treated: we are to be killed at every opportunity and through killing us the Islamic believer will gain paradise.

    3. I agree with your point here too, but elaborate. They demand to be the only sect and they will kill each other at every opportunity in order to become the only sect. The only thing a Muslim likes better than killing an infidel is killing another Muslim of a differing sect.

    4. Christians have sacrificed themselves for their beliefs throughout history. Most Americans identify themselves as Christians, and US soldiers are not cowards. The thing about the US and Christians is we are smart enough to realise thats its a far better policy to help the OTHER guy die for his beliefs than to die for your own.

    Solipist.....

    Dont lose sight of the fact that all the news of increased fighting in Iraq will clearly bring the death of hundreds if not thousands of Islamofascists. This is a good thing. While I think we are ignoring a potential strategy to back out of the limelight and let them kill each other, any strategy that results in more dead fundamentalists is a good thing.


    Terry
     
  7. infraredline

    infraredline Formula 3

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    We told the people of iraq repeatedly in as many ways as possible that we were coming in to stop this kind of senseless violence. It's been called the battle for "hearts and minds." Now you're suggesting we stir em up and then "back out" like the cartoon melee where one guy sneaks away from "the tornado" and just watches? War is deadly and last time I checked bullets don't just kill soldiers and religious fanatics. Some of the the same innocent people who we freed from opressive Sadam will be killed by this new civil war.
    The Iraqis aren't making things easy for us, but we really need to do the right thing for a change and try to stabilize the political and religious zeal that is breeding terrorists in the same way gang conflicts and violence create more anger and breed more gangsters. The only solution is stability and education. For starters, why not encourage the true Islamic leaders to teach the peaceful side of Islam.
    According to islam-usa.com, the religion is opposed to suicide and murder. Those who use it to that end are warlords and should be eliminated.
    The last time this much violence occured in the name of god, it was the middle ages and the infidels were Muslim. Maybe the Iraqi people DO need a bit of time before their culture advances to the point where they realize how stupid it is to kill people for a God who says "Thou shall not kill" or "anyone who saves one life, it is as if he has saved the whole of mankind and anyone who has killed another person it is as if he has killed the whole of mankind." - Quran [Chapter 5, verse 32].
     
  8. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
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    Quite right::education, gather up all people every day (everyone), sit them down and give them 8 hours of basic education <in something other than the Q'uran>; things like, history, geography, economics, business, math, science, physics, agriculture. Don't let anyone out of school unless they have passed an SAT-like test. You only have to do this for <say> 2 generations beofre the old ways die on the vine.

    Are we willing to wait 2 generations? Nahhh.
     
  9. RussianM3_dude

    RussianM3_dude F1 Rookie
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    The trouble with Islam in general and Q'uaran in particular is that for every positive quote that the moderate mullahs in the west can stick down the throats of the gullible western "usefull idiots" you can find two (quotes) that suggest exactly the opposite.The Q'uaran is such an ideological mess, that you can infer just about anything from it. Don't forget that it is not unIslamic (according to Ayatollah Khomeini) to have sex with animals (certain species only) as long as the animal is female and the man kills it right after he orgasms. He is not then allowed to serve that animal in his village.
     
  10. ART360

    ART360 Guest

    The pictures I saw today in the various Arab newspapers were of women and children, some under 5 years old. They were dead from US military action. I don't know that I'd call them Islamofasous. (That phrase is coined from Michael Savage, who, in my humble opinion is a total fraud) If we continue down this road, the hate that will be generated will last generations. It's time to admit that we were wrong, and let them solve their own problems.

    Remember that the only reason we're feeding them is that we invaded them, starved them, and otherwise caused a rich country to become very, very poor. They understand that, we don't however.

    When you sow crap, it usually comes back.

    Art
     
  11. RussianM3_dude

    RussianM3_dude F1 Rookie
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    Erm, arty boy. Seems you did not do too well in history in school. Iraq was in economic dire staits because of the war with Iran. (And don't give me the lefty crap that it was the US that encouraged it). That is the reason they invaded Kuwait, because they wanted to default on their debts.
     
  12. tvrfreak

    tvrfreak F1 Rookie
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    Err, Russian dude, seems like you have no clue what you are talking about again. Before the first Gulf War, there was no poverty in Iraq. No homelessness. Saddam did have social programs in place. Society was prosperous enough to support charity programs.

    The debt you are talking about was on the national ledgers. The foreign creditors were demanding their money back from Iraq, and it was not making the payments. It was feeling the pressure, and that's one of the main reasons it invaded Kuwait, but there was no poverty at the street level.
     
  13. ART360

    ART360 Guest

    the no fly zones, and the sanctions caused the poverty. Just before this last go around, Saddam had figured out how to get around those issues, and wealth was coming back into the Iraq, and things were looking up.

    By the way, if you read your history, you'll see that we encouraged the Iran war, and supplied Saddam with his WMDs which were used in that war. I think the US company that did that was the one that Rumsfeld ran at the time, if I'm not forgotten.

    Art
     
  14. RussianM3_dude

    RussianM3_dude F1 Rookie
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    Encouraging Saddam to ivade another country is like encouraging a drug addict to take another hit. Living standards in Iraq were in steep decline during the Iran-Iraq war (according to the Economist if my memory serves me correctly) and besides, why should the burden of blame for Iraqi trouble be shifted to the US? Saddam is the culprit.
    Same goes for US supposedly "arming" Saddam. 90% of his weapons were French (Exocet etc.) and Russian. The only US supplied equipement he was using were unarmed civilian Huey choppers. I have good sources on that, my uncle was a weapons inspector after the first war.
     
  15. tvrfreak

    tvrfreak F1 Rookie
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    Your memory does not serve you correctly. Either cite the specific article, or don't bother. This is no better than "anonymous sources"--a device employed to print BS.

    The burden of blame for Iraqi trouble is not being shifted to the US. The burden of blame for US trouble is finally being (correctly) attributed.

    As for the weapons, they were freely bought on the open market with US knowledge (and tacit approval). Whether they were French or South African does not change the facts. NATO member nations share information on weapons sales. The US knew about this, and did not have a problem with it.

    Did your uncle ever find anything?
     
  16. RussianM3_dude

    RussianM3_dude F1 Rookie
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    US was not at war with Saddam at the time, how and why would it have stopped Saddam from purchasing weapons on the open market?

    P.S. My uncle worked on decomissioning the Iraqi Supergun that was aimed at Israel and Jordan and could fire 1m diameter shells. (The gun was designed by a Canadian Gerald Bull actually).
     
  17. kevfla

    kevfla Formula 3

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    Not having access to a Quran, perhaps you do. Could you verify or clarify an interesting possible irony regarding Chapter 9, Verse 11? I understand it speaks of "The eagle" ( perhaps a Nostradamus-like metaphor for America?) attacking Islam. With 9-11 symbolic of Islamic extremists attacking the West, could there have been symbolic use of the numbers?

    KevFla
     
  18. rcallahan

    rcallahan F1 Rookie
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    That quote is a bogus rumour from the internet.

    Bob
     
  19. WJHMH

    WJHMH Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Gone for a day & I'm coming back to read this, I must a struck a nerve with most of you guys but sometimes you gotta vent. The world has gone to complete dogsh!t & we can blame no one but ourselves. I'd like to see our troops, friends & families get the hell out of there & let them run their country into the ground. Even if we could, US Troops will stay there acting like a babysitters cleaning up the mess & it's just getting messier. Let’s see what Cunalingus Rice will say during the 9/11 hearings tomorrow, at least it an election year...

    Man, I gotta lay off the CNN.
     
  20. kevfla

    kevfla Formula 3

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    It did seem a little too ironic.
     
  21. ART360

    ART360 Guest

    We did more than encourage him: We supplied him with intelligence to fight the Iranians with. Well documented. CIA provided him with Iranian troop movement intelligence. More importantly, we SOLD him the makings of his chemical weapons, and although not proven, probably told him how to make them. Deep Throat said: follow the money when it was time to get Nixon. Same deal here: follow the money: whose getting paid off here. Oil, Oil contractors. People are getting rich over this deal. Everyone else is losing.

    Art
     
  22. coachi

    coachi Formula 3

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    Terry, when we meet again, I will enter in a discussion with you about your points, in private. I was born a moslem...though was never a practicing one

    (2) that point is abosultely incorrect. Show me the verses in the Koran where it says that

    (3) to say that moslems want to kill other moslems of other sects is like saying protestants want to kill catholics. I don't really believe that

    (4) Christians have waged wars in the name of Christ (the Crusades...etc) and their objectives were not as noble as declared.

    I am an American, but I do not think all Americans understand people that are not as fortunate as we are. I despise terrorists as much as the other guy if not more. I have repeatedly posted that we should channel our enegies towards peace...that killing is barbaric and uncivilized and inhuman.. the moslem and christian religions both teach to turn the other cheek...however no one practices that...there is no eye for eye in the new testament or the Koran.

    And finally, the Iraqis did not ask us to go there. We went there for our reasons. I resent and abhor the hienous crimes committed against the civilians and military people who represent us there, because I am an American and love my country...but I doubt we had sufficient reason to go there in the first place.
     
  23. MarkG

    MarkG Formula Junior

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    "(2) that point is abosultely incorrect. Show me the verses in the Koran where it says that"

    .....like the Bible, the Koran can be interpreted by anyone to suit their personal beliefs; The Koran may be totaly innocent but people twist it's versus ....just like the Bible...to suit their needs

    "(3) to say that moslems want to kill other moslems of other sects is like saying protestants want to kill catholics. I don't really believe that"

    Study the history of the Ku Klux Klan....Catholics at the top of the hit list; Irish Catholics did not have a good time in New York at turn of century

    "(4) Christians have waged wars in the name of Christ (the Crusades...etc) and their objectives were not as noble as declared."

    Ain't that the truth!
     
  24. MarkG

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    From Salon: http://salon.com/opinion/feature/2004/04/08/occupation/index.html:

    Nothing much changes in Iraq. Just before the Shiites rose in revolt against the occupation, a leading member of the occupation authority in Baghdad reported that "the bottom seems to have dropped out of the agitation and most of the leaders are only too anxious to let bygones be bygones."

    No, that was not Paul Bremer on CNN, but the British Iraqi expert Gertrude Bell, writing to the local military commander in May 1920. Almost immediately afterwards, most of Iraq erupted in a bloody revolt that inflicted thousands of casualties on the occupation forces. The uprising was enthusiastically supported by both Shiite and Sunni, who held joint prayer services in each other's mosques in support of the rebellion.
     

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