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black boxes for car crashes

Discussion in 'Ferrari Discussion (not model specific)' started by 95spiderman, Sep 28, 2004.

  1. 95spiderman

    95spiderman F1 World Champ
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    Nov 1, 2003
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    just read ny times about new cars having hard drive black boxes installed that constantly monitor mph, rpm, seat belts, etc. save 5 sec of data prior to crashes that ins co can then upload to determine fault then adjust ins rates.

    is this good ie. safe drivers will be rewarded or too much big brother interference?
     
  2. venusone

    venusone F1 Rookie

    Mar 20, 2004
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    Sounds ok. But if they couldn't do it for Columbia or Challenger, what?
     
  3. Kds

    Kds F1 World Champ

    It has nothing to do with insurance at all. That was not the intent of the device.

    It is for manufacturer's to monitor airbag performance. The insurance issue is just an unfortunate side effect that the insurance industry and the police have latched onto.
     
  4. LetsJet

    LetsJet F1 Veteran
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    I'd be concerned........... Is there a potential of error? I would be happier if the data was available to verify for accuracy. Then in the event of an accident you could be relatively certain the data was good.
     
  5. MarkPDX

    MarkPDX F1 World Champ
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    Apr 21, 2003
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    Good point, if your Ferrari explodes in an enormous fireball several miles above the Earth or disintigrates while reentering the atmosphere at 17 times the speed of sound then the black box wouldn't help much.
     
  6. 285ferrari

    285ferrari F1 World Champ
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    I just recently went through the Vetronix Crash Data Retrieval system program.( Black box) also known as CDR-Crash Data Recorders. They are only available in a select few vehicles. We -the agency I work for- have done 2 downloads to compare to our crash reconstruction results and they are very accurate. We get a search warrant for the box so there are no problems about unlawful search and seizure. Ferrari is NOT one of the manufacters having downloadable CDR's. Different vehicle makers give different info at download. The only time info is hardwritten to the box is at airbag deployment. I have more info if anyone needs it.
     
  7. 285ferrari

    285ferrari F1 World Champ
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    Insurance companies cannot get this info without a warrant and somone to download the box. Only one company makes the CDR and it is about $3,500.00
     
  8. thecarreaper

    thecarreaper F1 World Champ
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    another reason to keep the old carb cars around. cell phones, personal computers, the internet, global positioning equipment, all can be now used by you, and against you by the government. aint the technology great! NOT!
     
  9. lotustt

    lotustt Formula 3

    Aug 28, 2002
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    I dont like this idea, and fear it will interfere in peoples lives.
     
  10. IHaveNoCar

    IHaveNoCar Rookie

    May 17, 2004
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    I was reading somewhere that they're testing a system in England, where people volunteer to have GPS recorders in their cars. The insurance companies use these to determine where/when/how/etc the people drive, and then vary their insurance rates by that. In my opinion, I could never drive a car if I felt that my every action was being recorded. I don't want my rates to go up because I drive a little over the speed limit, or accellerate too quickly from a stoplight. I've never gotten a speeding ticket or even been pulled over, but I'm sure that every time I drive, I do something that my insurance wouldn't like.
     
  11. zff

    zff Karting

    Nov 1, 2003
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    I think the black boxes are a good idea, but the data should be the property of the car's owner. I don't know the legal details, but it seems like the data would be sort of like testimony from the car's owner.

    It would be completely up to the owner whether the data gets destroyed (right to remain silent) or submitted as evidence.
     
  12. moretti

    moretti Four Time F1 World Champ
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    I'm sure I've read this being used on another car website by the insurance company but there was an appeal going on about the legality of using this info.

    If an insurance company can get out of a payment then I can see this being a BIG problem for having claims denied because you were 5mph over the limit.
     
  13. Admiral Thrawn

    Admiral Thrawn F1 Rookie

    Jul 2, 2003
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    The Columbia broke up at 200,000ft (60.96km or 37.88 miles), around the most intense period of reentry.

    Challenger exploded at around 60,000ft (18.29km or 11.36 miles) IIRC.
     
  14. jm2

    jm2 F1 World Champ
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    The AACN (Advanced Automatic Crash Notification) box performs a number of functions.It makes emergency information available to 911 centers so that they can send the appropriate life-saving personnel and equip. to crash scenes faster.
    Responding to vehicle crashes quickly and efficiently can mean the difference between life and death.Using a collection of sensors,AACN automatically calls an OnStar advisor if the vehicle is involved in a qualified frontal,rear or side impact crash,regardless of airbag deployment.AACN provides crash severity information to OnStar advisors, who relay it to 911 dispatchers.
    AACN systems can determine the severity of crash, direction of impact, air bags deployed, multiple impacts and rollover (if equipped w/appropriate sensors)
    This technology will be available on a number of '05 models.
     
  15. tuttebenne

    tuttebenne F1 Rookie

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    Great. Another way to pass an expense onto the consumer that has benefit for someone else. Let's keep the science projects out of the products unless someone else is willing to pay for them. Ever wonder why cars are one of the very few mass produced items that are more expensive each year while most other mass produced items get cheaper with time?
     
  16. GoFerrari28

    GoFerrari28 Formula 3

    Jun 16, 2004
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    There is another way that the black boxes are being used...... In Florida about a year ago, a man was convicted of vehicular manslaughter because his car, a recent model Pontiac Trans Am (01 or 02, I think) was going over 100 MPH, with the accelerator at 95% of WOT when he hit a car backing out of a driveway and killing the two occupants. Despite testimony concerning the admissibility of the electronic information due to its potential rate of error, the black box's information was determined to be admissible as scientific evidence, and the defendant was found guilty of the charges, and the rulings are being appealed because of the admissibility of the electronic information. So apparently these new black boxes will eventually be used as evidence in automobile related civil and criminal matters.
     
  17. tacoz4sale

    tacoz4sale Formula Junior

    Dec 2, 2003
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    i always heard that the F50 had the blackbox..is that true?......
     
  18. 285ferrari

    285ferrari F1 World Champ
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    This could be true. The Pontiac Trans Am as well as the Firebird both have downloadable CDR's.
     
  19. 285ferrari

    285ferrari F1 World Champ
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    All vehicles since the advent of airbags have some sort of "blackbox". The question is whether the info in it is downloadable. Hence the F50 does have a "blackbox". But Ferrari's at this time are not on the Vetronix download data.
     
  20. Tod328gts

    Tod328gts Formula Junior

    Jul 23, 2003
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    With everyone crying about big brother watching, it's only going to get worse with this age of electronics and computers. The only way you will get away with not having any of this stuff is to move to a third world country, then you should be safe for about 20 yrs there....
     
  21. Tod328gts

    Tod328gts Formula Junior

    Jul 23, 2003
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    Engine control Units already have this capability. That is how the dealer finds faults in the systems is by downloading error codes from the ECU.

    They also have this capability in Transmission control units and other control units throughout specific vehicles made today.... You would be surprised on what is out there that people don't know about.....
     
  22. LetsJet

    LetsJet F1 Veteran
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    Is there any harm in removing or disabling the device? If it's your car and your device I would think you would be within your rights..... thoughts?
     
  23. logan diagnostic

    Oct 4, 2004
    2
    The CDR is not in the car. The CDR is the Vetronix tool that CAN download the crash data.

    The data is not stored in the ECM/PCM. On Gm's, the data is stored in the airbag SDM module. Fords are called the RCM.

    Dealers cannot download the crash data. A GM factory Tech 2 scan tool cannot access the data. We know, we have one.

    We actually have the equipment and are able to download the airbag crash data. The equipment can be seen here:

    http://www.airbagcrash.com

    Currently its just GM and a few Fords. The GM 's store the last 5 seconds of vehicle data plus the actual deployment data. Fords only record the actual deployment.

    Logan Diagnostic
    http://www.airbagcrash.com
    http://www.crashdatainfo.com
    http://www.ledfix.com
     
  24. Omerta

    Omerta Formula Junior

    Jan 10, 2004
    604
    A couple years ago I had to take an oil field driving course (which was done in the city.........) and the Suburban they taught us on was equiped with a video camera at the front, rear, and one viewing the entire cabin space, continuously recording. It would record about one minute of video, and keep re-recording over and over, until you pressed this button inside the cabin. The purpose is for instances such as someone rear-ending you. As soon as you get hit just press the button and it saves a one minute video from all the cameras. If the impact is hard enough to deploy the airbags, or violently shake the vehicle, it would altomatically save the videos.

    I used thos two years ago and it was in testing at the time. It seems fairly unpractical. The system was also taken advantage of. We would hit the button whenever we saw another driver doing something idiotic, and by the end of the few days we had a nice collection of clips of the worlds stupidest drivers.
     
  25. Ingenere

    Ingenere F1 Veteran
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    Thanks for all the details. Can you let us know which manufacturers (and models) have these systems (and from what year they are being used), so that we can make an informed decision as to if we want this in the cars that we purchase. Thanks...Dino
     

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