Boxers vs. 512TR

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4799

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7437

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48541

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=75483

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=135317

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=161854

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=280567

 

The boxer is better What more is there to say?

 

Dang sixcarbs were you laying in wait for that one or what? LOL


My .02, The Boxers were the cars of my youth. The TR is so much, dare I say it.... better.
(Flame suit on) Well more modern then.

I fear the Boxer just may be the best car I never had. Then again, if the right one comes along at the right time, I will live that old dream.

I've never driven either so I'd love to do that for sure.

 

Depends on what you like. An old car that is terrarium like hot, or a newer old car with almost acceptable A/C. Both cars sound good, and both cars can cost a bundle to maintain.

 

I know which I would go for.

Only you can decide which is best for you. Although, if I was really unsure, I would happily let my wife or daughter decide for me.

Asking a bunch of experts on here is NOT going to help at all

 

The TR is an objectively better car, in almost every way. The Boxer has a raw, visceral appeal. Take your choice.

 

I sold my 84BBI to buy a 94 512tr. Hands down the tr is far superior! A boxer is great to own as an investment...maybe. But I wanted a car that went as well as it looked. The tr is incredible piece of art with the performance to back it up with power and handling to spare. Image having it all, a 12 cylinder Ferrari that goes as well as it stops. hard find in a Boxer. If you drive spirited on the street, a Boxer you have to pick your battles or you WILL be embarassed when you lose. A 512tr just pulls and pulls and pulls and will not lose.
just my 2 cents.
Not that I encourage driving like that on the street. But just in case.
And who's to say a 512tr is not a good investment, really, what 12 cyl can you buy that has Enzo's input in design, not fiat based, that the look changed the worlds perception of the definition of Super Car. Okay, maybe the Countach. But this is a Ferrari note.

 

+1 Everyone pulls up to a TR and start asking fun questions... How much, how fast, how long you had it... also the cameras will not stop as if you are a celeb. Buy a TR and join our group. www.Prancingthunder.com

 

512TR vs Boxer? I'm stumped here. Both equally incredible. Sod it, I'd just own both instead.

 

Nice, both is a great answer!

 

i own both. and i like both of them for different reasons.

the 512tr is the better car. but it cannot help that since although they are not that far apart in age (9 yrs), the technology moved so far in that time span. handling, power delivery, comfort, all better in the 512tr. (nb these are relative things !) and the tr is an iconic shape which will be recognized everywhere. this can be good and bad (see threads on abuse).

the 512bbi is classic ferrari. beautiful non controversial shape. nice noise. nice pull (on my completely mechanically revitalized car), questionable interior ergonomics, barely functioning aircon, poor seat support, really poor plastic interior parts, terrible original tires.

i have driven both on very long trips over the years....and the 512tr wins again. the bbi wears you out after while. and it is not as stable at speed or in corners.
realistic vmax today in the 512tr at somewhere close to 190 feels like a vault. vmax in the bbi at somewhere like 170mph is downright scary. braking from speed in the tr is solid and confidence inspiring. braking from speed in the bbi is well...scary again.

i have driven both to events or gatherings. show up in the tr and the monied people are not impressed and tend to look down on you for your ill advised audacity to drive this blingy 80's icon (even tho i protest that it is a 90's car !!). show up in the bbi and you are a classy and discerning gentleman who knows his bordeaux from his blue nun.

i could go on, but it really depends on what you want. and if you cannot decide, then get both, like me!

 

maybe it's an off-beat comparison to make, if the assumption is they are simply versions of the mid engine boxer engine series between the Daytona and the 550. that's were the similarity ends, after that they're so un-comparable. The 512 TR had developed so far beyond the two carbed Boxers in particular. The gap is still wide between the BBi and TR. Comparing a BBi to the first generation Testarossa is a closer match and makes the "better" arguments tougher to make, I think. For what it's worth, Boxers have held their values much better than the Testatorras (excluding the 512TR, 512M).

I think the 512TR is actually more comparable to a 550 Maranello. Sure they're different layout approaches, but both are modern era GT's with "within the ballpark" performance figures. And once again, for what it's worth, the older of the two has held better than the newer version. 512TRs I believe are going for more than similar condition 550s. This is my impression, I don't have thorough substantiation for these observations.

Having said that, my votes are that the Boxer is a more special car, and the 512TR is a technically superior car.

 

A good and helpful assessment Ross...

Thanks.

Geno.

 

Bill-

Agreed!

Geno.

 

1. The TR is not quick anymore. The 550 Maranello already destroyed it 14 years ago, and that car in turn is complete mince meat for something like a 430, let alone a 458.
2. Who cares??? Each of these cars were phenomenally quick in their day, but comparing them with modern stuff just doesn't make any sense. If your ego needs you to win sprints on the street, you need a modern car. But if you just want a great drive, any of these cars will do.

Back to the OP's question - I much prefer the Boxer but the TR is definitely the more advanced car. You need to go and drive them and make up your own mind, they are very different. Ross and mrp_e made some great comments on describing them, it will give you an idea.


Onno

 

Can't say I have been 170ish in my boxer, but have been to the north side of 150. Never found the car to be unstable at speed, that accolade goes to the countach and various porches. Same with braking, if front end not worn the car will brake very well and track straight. It is possible that on some older cars ball joints rie rod ends etc are well worn even with low mileage. A worn front end will have the car all over the place when braking hard. Boxers are also very sensitive to alignment setup. The reward is when you get it right, the throttle can adjust the car in conjunction with the steering, there is a lot a boxer pilot can do to make incremental adjustments on a bend, or for that matter just power out like it is nobodies business. Yes the tiresd are crap, but that is fixable with wheels. the wheel upgrade takes the boxer into a different league.

Like any well set up performance car a properly sorted boxer will track true and straight, even under heavy braking. With decent pads the brakes are more than one would ever need on the street. The limitations on the boxer are a heavy steering at lower speeds, but this lightens up considerbaly above 45ish. I am sure a TR must be faster, and yes the boxer ac is a joke, and the interior not as high end. On the other hand it is really like a can am car for the road, and ferrari has not done that genre before of since. The two valve motor may not have the top end push of a TR but a BBi has a throttle response so quick and yest so accurate that the pedal is more of a rheostat, if you have ever driven an inboard ski boat you understand. Get used to a boxer and while it is not a daily it can be used on most days, my kids have had numerous school runs in it. Long trips are an adventure or a pain, depending on weather and raod conditions. The TR is the american car, big power, good ac etc. If you have nice surfaced sweeping roads where you live, ie 60-140 mph bends the boxer will alwaysd entertain. Like a superbike if you have to drive too far to the roads it is not so great. Being stealth also has its advantges, people who know and like cars, admire the boxer, the rest tend not to notice, which is good.

A boxer is something to learn an savour on the right occasion. It is also a car which feels fast sometimes just keeping up with traffic, then you really get on it and its warp apeed. If you have ever driven a single seater race car you know the feeling, it is never slow and always a challenge but ther is a huge difference between when you feel speed and yopu are really moving and the car can do both. Think of a boxer as closer to a daytona/275, and the TR as closer to a 550. One is untamed and something for those who apprciate it, the other like a M series BMW is a bit of both, but neither fully one nor the other. BTW a 308 is more like a boxer and a 360 more like a TR. Horses for courses. But if you had to have only one, live near some great roads, dont need serious Ac and have other vehicles then get a boxer.

 

since you know plenty about boxers- do you know what the cylinder head torque is for a 512bb? hot or cold?

thanks

 

They are both old cars, so pros and cons would be dependent on the condition of the individual vehicles you are comparing. Having said that..............

I think the biggest difference between these cars have to do with when they were built and where Ferrari was at as a manufacturer at those times.
As far as preference I think it has to do with what type of Ferrari fanatic you are.
Or maybe even what generation you were born in.

All of these vehicles are stunning(including the 365BB), sing a beautiful song, and are some of the best performers of their respective generations.

If someone wanted to be recognized,
Get the best value for their dollar,
Or achieve the best performance,
The answer would be the TR, no question.
More than likely, you'd probably be able to spend more time driving and enjoying a TR.
The Testarossa helped define the exotic car and helped establish the marque as a reputable auto maker.
In my opinion the Ferraris of the mid to late 80's are the best built, most reliable Ferraris of their illustrious history.
Built when Enzo Ferrari was concerned about the reputation of his cars.
There are a lot of arguments on these forums about BB vs. TR, GT4 vs. Mondial, or 308 vs. 328 and such. But up until Enzo Ferrari's death, these cars got better and better every year(from a performance perspective, the early emissions certified cars were less than a forward step -but Ferrari bounced back real quick).

However,
For the hard-core Ferrari enthusiast/collector there is only one choice,
The BB!
This car will be recognized everywhere as a Ferrari, but only the enthusiast will know what a Berlinetta Boxer is.
This car has nothing to do with Miami Vice, Ferris Bueller, Magnum PI, or the Cannonball Run. None of that g** crap, there is nothing 'mainstream' about it.
This car represents FERRARI and that's it.
As far as performance, there will be less of a difference between a BB and a TR than what would be between a TR and a modern equivalent.
It is a vintage 70's race car with an interior and tuned for the street.
It is also probably the last Ferrari built solely on Ferraris terms.
No emissions, or bumpers, no regard for EPA/DOT requirements, or the world-wide market.
A very rare and special car.

my choice?
Well -if I were on a budget and my wife sees how much the cost is to buy and own one(and she does),
I'd have an early, single stalk Testarossa.

But if money were no object,
The 512 BB.

Of course, I've never owned either -so my opinions don't account for much over here.
But, just like everyone on this page, I have had this debate in my head many times.
That's why I ended up with a turbo'd 328!!!

 

That is why I think "some" who go a Concourse show are nothing but posers. I can't stand that attitude. Reading about Enzo Ferrari...those are the kind of people he hated to sell his cars to. Give me my beer and pretzels and the rest can shove their cheese and wine up the old hole. What I think is funny are the ones who run the show and don't even own a Ferrari but think they are soo qualified to judge.

 

by the way any 12 cylinder car is cool!

 

to be clear, i was not referring necessarily to ferrari gatherings. but other stuff like the alpine tours, little league picnic, weddings, polo games etc. the image problem of the 512tr is mostly with those who can afford a 599, or 3 or 4 of them. those that are in regular cars are usually appreciative of either 512.

 

Very nice points made ,I really enjoyed reading it!

Almost twenty years ago I got the nicest BBi I have ever seen.

I was in my early thirties by then and very sensitive to the fun factor when driving a car. With the experience of a car dealer since college and driven by the motivation of the most FUN driving experience on the street, I tested for many miles pretty much anything made under the sun since they were all at my disposal to buy and sell for a profit and use personally if I wanted to.

All Ferraris are special but I can recall how I had the chance to test them all for many miles and I recall how those days the TRs were attracting attention to an annoying level.....even cops would stop me for no reason to check the car out......the Boxer for most was confused for a 308 and me I loved to drive the Boxer better than all......so today in my fifties I do not want to do any performance driving on the street any more and I do not like to get tickets ,but that white BBi is still sitting in my garage and my point is it kept being the magical car in my head better than the rest........ regardless of who liked what through the years........ for one reason......it is the most fun one to drive and look at!
I get great satisfaction to finally see that younger people are realizing what it is and how is different from the other production cars built later on.
The Boxer is a true Ferrari and it drives like a true Ferrari.
On the race track the Boxer was not built to run on street TRxs so if you want to see what a Boxer is put some rubber on it and you will find out what a true Ferrari feels like.
I bet a BB with sticky tires and proper springs and shocks can scare the heck out of a 430 on the race track and give a sensitive driver triple the fun on the street and that is what counts the most........the fact that is the last and only hand build twelve cylinder mid engine Ferrari and a detuned engine race chassis with some history dressed up in leather for the street is only added bonus to how much fun it is to drive ......not because who owns it gives a s$#t about who looks at them.

I can look under my BBi and under a race car LM BB and see the same chassis and a arms and I do not know of a TR with these kind of credentials......I am sure it has something to do with the way it drives and the reason why I always liked it more than the TRs I owned in the past.

 

I think, as an American, there is a certain aura about the 512 as they weren't properly imported.
In actuality the only 512 I've ever been around, as far as close inspection, was a Koenig twin turbo. In actuality I didn't like it. For the most part I do like the Koenig 512 as they remind me of the 512BB/LM. I also the Lorenz Spyder very much.
But on this car, the rear flares were more square looking like the Testarossas and looked like an afterthought. The biggest problem is that the conversion looked old(this was around 1992 or 93)The owner was a collector and had TRs, a Countach, 911turbos etc etc.
He was going on about how the other cars couldnt even come close to the power of the 512.
He was telling me it's too much at low speeds but on the highway it's incredible. I'll take his word on it. The engine compartment was awesome.

How bout yours? Was it federalized or is it factory?
To me the Boxer is 1 half race car, 1 half spaceship. I love it!!!!

 

Amen, that pretty much sums it all up. I can absolutly concur on the rubber issue. Scrapping the TRX's totaly transforms the car. In the end a Boxer is a can am type car for the street, there was only one street car built to this criteria, and the boxer is it, barring some one off maclarens. You simply wont find the same experience in anything else. On the right day on the right road it is pure magic. Corrospondingly it can be a pain, is not a great daily, but then its rewards as no daily type car can. Would you rather fly a P51 or be a passenger in a lear.