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Broken 246GTS headlamp - replacement help? part number help?

Discussion in '206/246' started by synchro, Sep 7, 2005.

  1. synchro

    synchro F1 Veteran

    Feb 14, 2005
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    Scott
    The passenger's side headlamp on my US version 1973 246 GTS picked up a rock resulting in cracks and a hole this weekend.

    1) I need a replacement, can anybody help with a source? A quick google search was unhelpful.

    2) Can any other Dino owner confirm their headlamp numbers? I see Carello 4300 as the model on the glass but the small numbers seem to be 01.415.700 although these were so small that I could have misread them. To make things more confusing I think I read the driver's side headlamp as numbers as 03.435.700, but again difficult to read.

    Any help on what part number and where to get it would be most appreciated.

    Scott
     
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  3. dm_n_stuff

    dm_n_stuff Global Moderator
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    #2 dm_n_stuff, Sep 7, 2005
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    US are sealed beam. It's a different part number in the book.

    I'll check mine tonight. Does your look like this?

    DM


    Dennis McCann shows this part.

    20176608 HEADLAMP SEALED BEAM, DINO US VERSION (WESTINGHOUSE) $ 75.00

    Dino parts book lists: 0201706 for US spec. SEALED BEAM.
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  4. dm_n_stuff

    dm_n_stuff Global Moderator
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    #3 dm_n_stuff, Sep 7, 2005
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  5. 308 GTB

    308 GTB F1 World Champ
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    #4 308 GTB, Sep 7, 2005
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Scott,

    Check to see if those numbers on the driver's side Carello reads 03.485.700 and if it looks like the picture below. Use a magnifying glass if necessary as the numbers on Carellos are indeed hard to read (the 8 may look like a 3).

    If so, you can get a replacement at Lyle Tanner at:

    http://www.ferraripartsexchange.com/index.html

    It looks like one of your headlights were changed in the past. If I remember my E Codes correctly, the 03 means Italy and the 01 means Germany.

    Barry
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  6. racerboy9

    racerboy9 Formula 3
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    Nov 3, 2003
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    I thought the US models came with Wagner or Westinghouse sealed beam headlamps. Some NOS Fiat headlamp assemblies from that era came with Wagner headlamps.
     
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  8. 308 GTB

    308 GTB F1 World Champ
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    Yes, my 1976 GTB (US Version) came with Westinghouse sealed beams. I replaced them with E-code Carellos of that period. Apparently someone in the past did the same with Scott's Dino.

    Carellos were OEM in Europe in the 70s.

    Barry
     
  9. Kliz

    Kliz Karting

    Mar 6, 2005
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    #7 Kliz, Sep 7, 2005
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    The Cibie H4's on my US 246 GTS may or may not be as original but they are outstanding for night driving - well, duh! When else does one "use" headlights?
    Seriously though, they are as good or better than those on my 97 911. In Central Oregon we have mule deer large enough to total a Dino if you hit one - day or night. An occasional black cow, on a midnight stroll, can be met "up close and personal" on some of our roads through open range country. Anything less than good halogens aren't acceptable for night driving around here!

    That was a pristine 356 A Coupe before it's night encounter with a mule deer.

    Bill
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  10. dinogts

    dinogts Formula 3
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    I replaced my headlights (originals - but I can't remember where I stored them to keep them safe [so much for that]) with H4s also, BECAUSE I WANTED TO BE ABLE TO SEE AND BE SEEN. If you do ANY driving at night, I would store your old headlights and get new H4s ASAP.

    Mark
     
  11. Slim

    Slim Formula 3

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  13. dinogts

    dinogts Formula 3
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    Slim's Daniel Stern website reference is worth reading. Thanks for the tip, Slim!

    Mark
     
  14. dm_n_stuff

    dm_n_stuff Global Moderator
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    Ferrari UK appears to have all of the variations available.

    #20267802/U CARELLO H/LAMP UNIT NO S/LIGHT
    Unit price: £36.70
    Quantity required: 2

    #20176608 LAMP UNIT (SEALED BEAM)VER/USA
    Unit price: £51.30
    Quantity required: 2
    This part supersedes: 401240

    #20267704 246GT/S LHD HEADLAMP ASSY (FR SPEC)
    Unit price: £54.80
    Quantity required: 2
    This part supersedes: 401675, 20236006
     
  15. dm_n_stuff

    dm_n_stuff Global Moderator
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    When you guys put in the cibies, do you add the relay kits?

    DM
     
  16. Kliz

    Kliz Karting

    Mar 6, 2005
    77
    Relays are a very good idea! Not sure whether or not mine has them but I'll check. Clean contacts and Optima battery help also!
    Bill
     
  17. 308 GTB

    308 GTB F1 World Champ
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    Relays are only necessary if you intend to use higher wattage H-4 bulbs than the standard 55/60 W H-4s.

    Barry
     
  18. Slim

    Slim Formula 3

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    If we're talking about protecting the headlight switch from melting from the draw, then I'd agree the stock wiring set up should be ok. But if we're talking about getting the most light to the road, then relays will help with any bulbs. I would measure voltage you are getting at your headlights and if, after cleaning the grounds and whatnot it is still significantly less than what your alternator is putting out, I'd install the relays. Lots of things can happen over the years to our wiring to prevent full voltage from getting where we want it.

    Halogen headlights are very sensitive to voltage. The drop in light output is not linear, it is exponential with the power 3.4.

    Here's an example based on a low beam bulb rated 1000 lumens at 12.8 Volts. With relays you are going to get, say, 14v at the headlight and that would give you 1356 lumens of light. If you only have 12v at the headlight you'd be down to 803 lumens and at 10.5V you'd have only 510 lumens.

    Info taken from Danielstern.com...
     
  19. Kliz

    Kliz Karting

    Mar 6, 2005
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    Richard!

    Thanks for the "illuminating" (sorry!) info! I agree 100%. My Cebie H4's are very good but more output is always better. Where does one get a relay kit for the Dino?
    Bill
     
  20. dm_n_stuff

    dm_n_stuff Global Moderator
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    http://www.cibieusa.com/cibie_main_frameset.htm
     
  21. dm_n_stuff

    dm_n_stuff Global Moderator
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    Further research into this whole US headlight thing.

    Apparently, Wagner or Westinghouse were installed, depending on what was lying around at the time, always sealed beams.

    apparently, the dealers often had to fit proper headlights for US spec.

    My car had been retrofitted with French H4 Halogens. But, apparently it was done at the factory. It should have had US sealed beams, which it now does. The French halogens have replaceable "NORMA" round lamps 45/40 watt.

    I also will have a spare set of Wagner period correct 6014 bulbs on Monday, if anyone needs them, PM me.

    Dave
     
  22. 308 GTB

    308 GTB F1 World Champ
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    Richard,

    What you say is very true. And thank you for elaborating on this issue of relays.

    There's a current related thread in the Classic Section regarding upgrading 328 headlights where I too referenced Daniel Stern Lighting.

    I learned the hard way with the Hella E-codes I installed on my daily driver. I replaced the 55/60W H4 bulbs that came with the assemblies with 55/100W H4s, not bothering to install relays. As I do a lot of country driving with high beams, I melted the terminal ends of the wiring harnesses at the headlights. I've repaired the harnesses, installed the relays and have continued using these higher wattage bulbs with no further incident.

    I've never measured the voltage to the headlights before and after, but my observation is the lighting is noticeably a "bit" brighter with both low and high beams now and certainly no dimming of either at idle and the AC kicking in. My 308 lighting as previously described is more than adequate and certainly as effective as the usual advertisements indicate. With the standard 55/60W H4s, there has been no deterioration of the harnesses in my GTB. Relays would be a rather easy install in the 308 considering the battery placement.

    Daniel Stern's website should be required reading material for those looking to uprade their lighting systems.

    Barry
     
  23. dm_n_stuff

    dm_n_stuff Global Moderator
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    So, if I read all of this correctly, the reason to install the relay is to shorten the distance from the source of power to the lights themselves, thus increasing the voltage reaching the bulb. The rlay replaces the original circuit switch, and you shorten the wires that way.

    And the source for the power itself can be the alternator, or the battery, depending on how you want to wire it. I'd go battery, as it is miles closer to the lights.

    And, you should use a nice heavy gauge braided wire while doing it, and solder all the connections, no crips, and BE SURE TO PUT FUSES IN LINE, so as not to toast your wiring.

    The net result is you get better voltage to the lights=brigher lights=better vision, etc, etc.

    Now to do this, I have to tear my car somewhat apart, pull a bunch of wires make all new connections, wrap them, hide them, and when I'm done I'll have brighter lights for the 3 or 4 hours a year I drive after dark in the Dino.

    So, I think I'll try new bulbs first, and see what happens.

    BTW, got nice Halogen sealed beam Wagners from Algar for about $12 each. My car had already been re-wired for the French Halogens that were in there.

    DM
     
  24. 308 GTB

    308 GTB F1 World Champ
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    Dave,

    Yup! You've read it all correctly.

    I think that our cars don't really need the relay upgrade. We sacrifice a few lumens by not rewiring. And as Richard mentioned, our wiring and switches will be safe with 55/60W H4s. The Daniel Stern website even addresses cars like ours:


    "I personally wouldn't perform this upgrade on a really collectible car without taking care to hide all the new wiring. Actually, there's probably not much need to go to high-powered Cibie (or other European-specification) headlamps on a true collector car that is not driven at night."


    Practically, the E-code Carellos on my car perform admirably and light my way well on the darkest of country roads. And they're "light years" ahead of the poor, tired OEM sealed beams they replaced.

    I'm curious as to the rewiring required for your French E-codes.

    Barry
     
  25. Slim

    Slim Formula 3

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    Even though I'm a headlight geek, I wouldn't go hacking up the original wiring on a car like a Dino (or older car). Even with my lowly Fiats I don't like to hack them up too much because it makes it hard for the next guy (and there is always a next guy) to figure out how it is wired up.

    What I usually do is take the original three prong plug that goes to the headlight and pull out the low beam wire spot and connect it to the relay as the "trigger". I then run a new power wire to the relay from the battery or alternator, a new ground to the relay, then I run the "power out" from the relay (usually there are two on a relay) to both of the headlights, plugging them back into the original 3 prong plug or to a new one. I redo the grounds from headlight to body as well (or at least clean the original ones). That way, since nothing was cut, I can just unplug all the wires and go back to original if need be (like if I sell the car and want to keep my H4 lights and put back in cheap sealed beams, ha!).

    I don't usually do the high beam circuit because all my Fiats have already had a relay for the high beam circuit - only the low beam circuit was direct. And I rarely have a chance to turn on high beams anyway because there are always too many cars coming towards me at night here in the bay area anyway.

    I have dreadful headlights on my '69 spider right now and this thread has reminded me to do something about it. Even though I never really drive that car at night. I do drive my Fiat 238 van at night but it lived in Germany until recently so has good H4 Hella flat face lights. Plenty good enough for the slow speeds this vehicle is able to reach!

    BTW, I think I have some 5 3/4" carello lights around here somewhere (used) if anyone ever needs them or some parts off them (the rubber boots, clips that hold the bulbs etc.). I don't have a car that has the four headlight set up anymore so I don't need to keep them.
     

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