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Building a slightly tweeked 2v drysump motor

Discussion in '308/328' started by duck.co.za, Nov 7, 2009.

  1. duck.co.za

    duck.co.za Formula Junior

    Jan 9, 2007
    813
    Cape Town South Afri
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    Dave
    #1 duck.co.za, Nov 7, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Some history , bought my car almost 3 years ago with the motor in bit's ! Previouse owner didn't know how to check the oil level with the drysump . Drove it till it through a rod !!! When the local Ferrari agent pulled it apart they could not get the heads off !! This is when I got involved , the agent's managed to do a deal and trade the car , and I bought it from them .
    So for the past while I've been collecting bit's and trying to decide how far I'm going to go with this motor . Fchat has been invaluable with information , I've met some very interesting people and made some good friends .
    Finally I'm at the stage of beginning to put it together . I needed a new block , which thanks to a Fchatter I found in Canada . Crank came from the UK . Rods from a 355 .Pistons are from JE . Cams are presently on there way to webcams . Most of the other bit's came from Superformance in the UK .
    First pic is the car getting some well needed air .
    Then there's the crank ready to got off to the balancers , just need to sort out the flywheel
    My rod balancing jig , seem to be getting repeatable results now !
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  3. f308jack

    f308jack F1 Rookie

    Jun 7, 2007
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    Hi Dave,

    Finally I see some pics!

    Car looks sweet, the engine will be sweeter still. What profiles did you choose for the cams?

    I'll try and pop in sometime this week and see it all for real:)

    Cheers!
    Jack.
     
  4. Crazyhorse

    Crazyhorse Formula Junior

    Jul 23, 2007
    441
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    Bill Long
    Will be a great ride when you get her finished,keep us posted on the results. BTW,i didn't know 355 rods would interchange with the 308 rods,same length and journal sizes? Wrist pin dia.same? Great job,enjoy!
    B.
     
  5. duck.co.za

    duck.co.za Formula Junior

    Jan 9, 2007
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    Rods are the same except for the small end it's 20mm . I had to have pistons made so I got them with 20mm gudgeon pins . Crank had to be ground to the 355 bigend bearing shell size . Can't remember exactly but I think I lost 1,4kg changing from steel to Titanium rods .
    Managed to find new rod bolts direct from the Pankl factory and they wheren't to expensive ( cheaper than bolts and nuts for the steel Ferrari rod )
    Cams ??? I'm not sure what I'm going to do . I have a set of inlet cams on there way to webcams at the moment . Going to have them weld and grind the " Daytona " profile and then I'm thinking of using my early carb inlet cams in the exhausts . They are only about 8 deg less duration compared to the " Daytona " exhaust cam .
    Jack you must pop round , we can short out the belts and tensioner bearings .
     
  6. f308jack

    f308jack F1 Rookie

    Jun 7, 2007
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    Dave,

    The various grinds were discussed at length, as you know; somehow I seem to remember that the Daytona exhaust cam had little to gain over the early 308 one.

    You lost all that weight in the rods because you have only 7:p
    How much lighter will the pistons be?

    Yes, we'll sort belts and tensioners as well, preferably I'd like to put my car back together by next weekend, but I don't think I'll make that. It is only now that I realize how fortunate and spoilt I was when I still had the workshop! Back to working in a private garage from there is really hard.
     
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  8. duck.co.za

    duck.co.za Formula Junior

    Jan 9, 2007
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    Good point re the old pistons , don't think I've ever weighed one .
     
  9. f308jack

    f308jack F1 Rookie

    Jun 7, 2007
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    It won't be an earth-shattering difference, but it is reciprocating mass, so of some importance.

    What are you doing with the flywheel and clutch assembly?
     
  10. duck.co.za

    duck.co.za Formula Junior

    Jan 9, 2007
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    #8 duck.co.za, Nov 8, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I did a search and found this very neat mod chrismorse did , possibly something similar ! I have also been keen on Nick Forza's front damper although every time I've spocken to Nick he hasn't had stock !! Has anyone here tried Nick's front damper ??
    Also interested to hear from the pro's re the rod mass reduction . I have done the rods is this enough ? How much is to much ? Is the flywheel , front damper and rods to much ?
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  11. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
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    It's my understanding that the exhaust cam profile for these 2v engines does not matter because the head flows so much more than is needed out of the ex side. I believe Mark ran a simulator with a P6 intake with a stock early carb exhaust cam. The result was essentially the same. Point being, get the LSA right and you are good to go with a good intake profile. Your engine is going to be great!
     
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  13. Crazyhorse

    Crazyhorse Formula Junior

    Jul 23, 2007
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    Were the journals just ground to the rod size or offset ground,giving you a different stroke/displacement? I guess what i'm getting at is will your engine increase displacement or be the 2.9L with much stronger/better components and preform a lot better than a stock 2v?
    B.
     
  14. duck.co.za

    duck.co.za Formula Junior

    Jan 9, 2007
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    #11 duck.co.za, Nov 8, 2009
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2009
    The crank needed a grind and I had got 010" bearings , when they got to grinding the crank it did not require much material removal to get the bearing clearance in spec . So unfortunately no offset grinding and stroke increase . I have a 360 crank (89mm stroke ) which pritty much drops in , but that's a whole nother story !!
    The reason I used the rods was , I had them !! they are much lighter and the reduced mass should put less stress on everything else .
    I'll weigh a std piston tomorrow , think the JE's weigh 301g not sure if thats with or without a G/pin . A bare 360 piston is somewhere around 260g
     
  15. rolindsay

    rolindsay Formula 3

    Jul 14, 2006
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    #12 rolindsay, Nov 8, 2009
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2009
    Thanks for saving this car Dave. My '79 308GTB is also a dry dump car and quite an important event to save.
    What's your chassis number. My car is #28133

    -rick lindsay / houston, tx
     
  16. duck.co.za

    duck.co.za Formula Junior

    Jan 9, 2007
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    Interesting mine is registered 1980 and #27045 , must have sat with the dealer for a while before being sold !!
     
  17. Crazyhorse

    Crazyhorse Formula Junior

    Jul 23, 2007
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    Dave,

    Thanks for the reply, sounds like you'll a quick reving mill with those light weight components,with a nice exhaust should sound like a F1 engine! Good luck and thanks for keeping us in the loop.
    B.
     
  18. CliffBeer

    CliffBeer Formula 3

    Apr 3, 2005
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    With all the light weight components and balancing fine tuning it might be worth try to get a little higher limit on the valve float. Perhaps try some titanium valve springs with a little higher valve spring tension?

    More aggressive cams typically moves the peak HP higher up in the range so it can be worth moving up the top limit on the valve train. If you could get more towards a 7,500-8,000 rpm limit then you'd certainly be able to take full advantage of the lightening and balancing that you're doing. Just a thought.
     
  19. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    The stock valve train is safe well past 8k....the stock heads however don't flow enough air to feed the engine at 8k without some work.

    (I think you meant Ti spring retainers not Ti springs)
     
  20. CliffBeer

    CliffBeer Formula 3

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    I don't know about you Mike but the valves in my 2V 308 start to float at around 7,200-7,400 and they're in good shape with new ss valves and new springs. There's no way my engine is going to rev anywhere near 8,000 w/o damaging the valve train and/or pistons.

    As soon as you hear your valves start to float that means there's a valve open past its timing mark with a piston crown rapidly coming up to give it a kiss on the cheek.

    There's a reason why Ferrari sets the yellow line on the tacho at 7,000...
     
  21. f308jack

    f308jack F1 Rookie

    Jun 7, 2007
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    Not to stray off topic, but in that case you have a problem Cliff.

    Why do you say that your valves start to float at 7.2-7.4K?

    Red is @ 7.8K and the engine will quite happily rev way past that with no ill effects.
     
  22. rolindsay

    rolindsay Formula 3

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    My car was originally delivered to Germany. It was imported to the US in 1985 when the then-owner immigrated. I bought it in 1997. -rick
     
  23. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    The stock redline is 7700 which means the engine is completely safe to 7700. You can not hear valves flow and there is no valve float in a stock 2V engine at 8000 unless substandard parts have been installed.

    Non or this really matters though I guess as Dave is not building a stock engine and I'm sure he will select the correct components for his applicaiton.

    Mark
     
  24. hyenahf

    hyenahf F1 Rookie

    May 25, 2004
    2,535

    is that how one determines valve float is through the sound of the valvetrain makes?

    interesting....


    hf
     
  25. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
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    There is no valve float to 8k. Plenty of P6 cam 2v engines have been built with stock springs and retainers and they make full power at around 8k. Further, change the cam timing in an early carb engine for a bit more overlap and one can change their peak power to a over 7k which is how they came straight out of the factory for Euro market.
     
  26. duck.co.za

    duck.co.za Formula Junior

    Jan 9, 2007
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    #23 duck.co.za, Nov 10, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Just weighed all the different bits including some 360 stuff

    Std Ferrari steel rod 579g
    Ferrari/Pankl 360 Titanium rod 398g

    OE gudgeon pin 81g
    360 " short " gugeon pin 78g
    JE 20mm gudgeon pin for my pistons 78g

    OE 2V 4 ring piston ( no rings ) 325g
    Borgo forged factory race piston ( no rings ) 293g
    JE 82mm high comp piston ( no ring ) 291g
    360 piston including a ring pack 301g ( not sure what a ring pack would weigh )

    So on the rods I'm saving 180g each !! 1.44 kg TOTAL

    The 360 pistons is an 85mm bore ??
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  27. Crazyhorse

    Crazyhorse Formula Junior

    Jul 23, 2007
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    That's a major difference in rod weight,not sure of the c to c length but here in Nascar land a 600g rod is light, mostly Carrillos and Crowers but not titanium here,at least don't get caught with them.Rules say''magnetic steel only'' and if you run up front you get torn down regularly.
     
  28. f308jack

    f308jack F1 Rookie

    Jun 7, 2007
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    Dave,

    Since you have both available to you, weigh the cranks? Do you have a flywheel with that 360 engine? Weight?

    After this build half the world will be chasing after 360 conrods. It'll be a sweeeeet engine!
     

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