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Cabin blower motor

Discussion in '365 GT4 2+2/400/412' started by Dazanz, Jan 2, 2019.

  1. Dazanz

    Dazanz Karting
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    Jan 24, 2015
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    Hello
    The fan that is below the vents in the dash board that is located behind the centre mounted gauges has become noisey. I believe I will need to remove it and replace the bushes or instal a new motor.
    Can someone give me advice on the easiest way to get to this motor. And where I can get a replacement if required
    Thank you
    Daren
     
  2. Dazanz

    Dazanz Karting
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    Sorry car is a 1976 365 GT4 2+2
     
  3. Ak Jim

    Ak Jim F1 Rookie
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    Would be nice if there was a modern more efficient more powerful motor available.
     
  4. Dazanz

    Dazanz Karting
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    Yes I would be. Not sure if I need to remove the top of the dash board or pull out the centre console to be able to remove that fan and motor unit. It just had slightly noisey bushes but after a big drive today it sounds like the blades are scrapping a little bit so I suspect the bushes are completely worn out
     
  5. rovexienus

    rovexienus Formula Junior
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    If the control of this blower is the button immediately to the left of the autoradio location, the blower in question is the fan for the air conditionner and it is located inside a complete unit, item 31 on the page below:

    https://www.eurospares.co.uk/parts/ferrari/365-gtc4-coachwork/cooling-heating/heaters-blowers-30364

    In addition to the fan, this unit also contains the evaporator.

    If you look from below the steering wheel, you can see a part of this unit located in front of the centre console. There are no dismounting instructions for this unit in the 365GTC4 repair manual or in the 400i workshop manual.
     
  6. jacques

    jacques Formula Junior
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    I seem to recall that in the Boxer and the 308 forums this has been covered extensively. Also it seems to me that "Spaal" has some suitable motors. I hope this helps. Jq.
     
  7. Ak Jim

    Ak Jim F1 Rookie
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    So it sounds like you're going to pretty much have to disassemble the entire dash and maybe even console to remove the fan.
     
  8. Dazanz

    Dazanz Karting
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    Yes I Carnt find any previous topics on this that relate to a GT4. I have started trying to remove the top of the dash board and then I am hoping to remove the black plastic piece that goes on top of the metal evaporater unit in the hope I can then pop the motor out through the top and not have to pull the whole evaporater unit out.
    Hope I am on the right track
     
  9. Ferraridoc

    Ferraridoc F1 Veteran
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    Fat chance! I have had the centre console out, and the evaporator/fan unit sits directly behind it. I don't think, IIRC, that removing the dash pad will achieve anything, except, perhaps, to gain access under the dash vents to properly seal them with new foam. I have had the 308 unit out, and the motors are held in by screws that can only be accessed by removing the whole unit. I predict some mission creep. BTW, mine need doing too, and I'm thinking of selling the car rather than doing them.
     
  10. Dazanz

    Dazanz Karting
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    Yep your right. Centre console needs to come out to remove the whole unit. Oh well did need to replace the foam as it was worn out and lots of the bolts weren't tight enough
     
  11. Ferraridoc

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    Pictures! (or it never happened)
     
  12. Dazanz

    Dazanz Karting
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    I agree
     
  13. Dazanz

    Dazanz Karting
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    I removed the dash pad and the centre console. Was easier than I thought. After removing the evapaorator and dismantling the cabin blower motor, I found that a motor magnet had fallen off but is in otherwise very good condition. So some motor magnet glue and a clean and lube and I hopefully will be driving again very soon.

    SCREWDRIVER FOUND
    One very cool thing happened. When I removed the evaporater I found a very dirty but nice screwdriver.
    I wondered if it was left there when the 365 got its body/suspension/engine estoration in 1996 in Britain but apon googling the brand name I found it's a very old Italian brand of tools so I Beleive it was dropped behind the evaporater at the Ferrari factory when it was being built in 1976. (Records suggest the Ferrari has stayed in Britain all its life)
    The USAG brand was established in 1926, when entrepreneur Hermann Amos built the first manufacturing plant in Gemonio, Italy under the name Utensileria Società
    Anonima Gemonio.
     

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  14. rovexienus

    rovexienus Formula Junior
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    Thanks for these pictures, congratulations on the find!

    USAG has made tool chests with the Ferrari Logo on them.
     
  15. Ferraridoc

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    Nice find! And thanks for the pics. Did taking off the dash pad make any difference, or will it slide out the front? Any extra pics? (or better yet, a step by step guide :D)
     
  16. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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  17. Dazanz

    Dazanz Karting
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    I removed the evaporater unit again today as it was a too noisey. (It was prior to the motor magnet coming loose) I will order a spal blower fan unit and fit in its place with out modifying the evaporater box hopefully and also hope I get a lot more air flow/quieter sound.
    This time I just removed the centre console and glove box and it slide out to the passenger side.(RHD/Hoses may get in the way of a LHD) The dash board did have to be lifted 70 mm to get clearance. I haven't bolted it in 100% yet so raising it up in place was easy.
    There is a step by step guide in la-Ferrari.com. When I have time I'll post a link
     
  18. willrace

    willrace F1 World Champ
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    #18 willrace, Jan 28, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2019
    Let's try this again....
    Spaal does make a bigger, better fan now - it just won't quite fit in the original space provided by the factory evaporator/fan box.

    What the box looks like out of the car, firewall/engine would be to the right, passenger compartment/console (intake) on the left.
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    Ignore the fan sitting off to the right for now - we'll come back to it in a bit.

    Top of the metal section of the box, with the output manifold removed so you can see the two fan outputs. Intake (from inside the center console) is at the top of this picture.
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    Bare metal box, with the factory fan in its correct orientation to being mounted inside the box (sorry for the fuzzy pic). Note the scroll size and metal "squirrel cage" of the original fan.
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    Wall-to-wall inside the box where that fan fits is just under 6 inches. The flat flanges of the fans (around their outputs) are what mount to the metal, as you see in the 2nd pic.

    Original fan assembly as mounted inside the metal box. It's tight already.
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    This view would be looking Upward into the box, through where the evaporator coils reside. You can clearly see rub marks from the evap's fins on the scroll body, just above the tape measure's 11 inch mark - Like I said, it's tight. Also, note that the fans are rubber-mounted to the motor.

    Already tight = Not much room to just slap a bigger fan set in there
     
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  19. willrace

    willrace F1 World Champ
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    Tim's solution was a little nerve-wracking at first, but design and execution was the key. Remember the fan from the first pic above? That's the new, bigger fan we're going to fit to this box, with a little work.

    Cutting out the firewall-side wall of the metal box, and fitting a formed extension for the bigger scrolls......
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    Shown in correct position as when mounted in the car

    Welded and painted, you can see how the bigger fans fit into the box, output exiting through enlarged holes into the original manifold. Pictured position is upside-down to how the box mounts in the car.
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  20. willrace

    willrace F1 World Champ
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    #20 willrace, Jan 28, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2019
    OE evaporator coil is the first thing the cabin air hits on the way into the box, before being drawn through the fans and blowing out into the car.
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    How the OE evap coil fits with the new fans.
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    To maximize the amount of cooling area the air touches, a new coil is being made that will wrap into the void past which you can see the fan housings in this pic, with a cross-section like an "L" (when in correct position in the car)

    To fit the new box extension, the fiberglass firewall was cut and extended into the engine bay by the same dimension, sealed, painted, and Lizard Skin insulated (actually, somewhat in reverse order of that). There is still plenty of room between the engine and the firewall for service access (this was all established prior to cutting the box to start down this road).
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    The new fans utilize a brushless motor, and move about twice as much air.
     
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  21. Dazanz

    Dazanz Karting
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    I glued the motor magnet back into my blower motor but it didn't really give a descent amount of air flow and was still loud like before the magnet dropped off so I purchased a Spal replacement blower motor assembly.
    This one was close but the mounting holes were off so I fabricated a aluminium plate so I didn't have to modify the evaporater box
    I also used a multi purpose switch as the new motor is internally resisted for the 3 speeds. This fitted perfectly and the original control knob screwed on exactly
    There feels like twice as much air flow but is very quite by comparison.
    I also used Nylock nuts to mount the adapter
    I am getting the system gased up tomorrow and hoping for much better performance

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  22. Ferraridoc

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    That was one of the ones I considered or my 308 upgrade, but there was absolutely no room (fan shrouds hard up against the LHF wheel tub). It looked like the 008-A54-02 would fit, and had increased air flow, but I found it hard to source one, and ran out of time, so re-used the old ones. I did find significant increase in air flow by putting a relay on the high speed circuit - I would strongly suggest you do this.
     
  23. raemin

    raemin Karting

    Jan 16, 2007
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    the 008-A54-02 is power hungry 0-30Amps! Of course there is got 50% more airflow than regular blowers, but it just consumes 3 times more. In order to generate 600cfm this beast still require 20Amps. This seems a bit overkill and at least not efficient.

    By contrast, the one (008-A46-02) used by Dazanz is draning 10.2Amps for the same 600cfm, which seems reasonable. Unlike power windows this is a constant amp-draw, so probably the old rotary switch would benefit from some relays, but given Dazanz installed a brand new switch, there is no real need for relays.

    The blue connectors could be an issue though: 140w is a lot to ask for a cheap connector. I'd rather use "quality" connectors (made out of a sheet of metal that is 0.5mm or more). These do often have a dot shaped protrusion that locks the connector on the toggle switch. That's basically 20cts per connector so no point in making false economies...


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  24. Dazanz

    Dazanz Karting
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    That's a great idea Ferraridoc, I can just use a relay prior to the blower switch and All 3 speeds will be getting a proper 12 volts
     
  25. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
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    Good day Daren,

    It is too bad that I am not further along with my car, as I could have provided another electrical solution for your fan motor control. On my car the motor speed is controlled by an externally mounted wound resistor with multiple taps. In the "old" days (or if one wishes to reduce cost) one way to adjust a DC motor's speed was by reducing the voltage to it... Using a series resistor within the motor wiring circuit accomplished this... but with a ton of heat generated across the resistor (hence the reason they used a wound resistor on a ceramic core) and the loss of the motor's torque. The "proper" way to adjust motor speed is with a pulse width modulated (PMW) circuit. This circuit effectively turns-off and turns- on the motor at an adjustable frequency and on-time duration. The result is much finer control of the motor speed, improved torque, less heat generated, and more efficiency. Consequently, this is what I will be doing with a few other goodies too and will maintain the existing wiring runs (I may decided to upgrade the wiring size) and control switch and so all can be removed back to OEM if desired.. The negative is that I will not be working on this until late Summer and so these efforts cannot help your immediate needs. However, if this is something you wish to do later then let me know and I will keep you abreast of my progress and/or create a thread about the module when I am further along in its design.

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
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