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call me stupid, again

Discussion in '308/328' started by st@ven, Aug 5, 2010.

  1. st@ven

    st@ven F1 Rookie
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    After I rebuild the '78 carbed gtb I bought last year to get it allowed to drive on our
    European roads (See my "call me stupid" thread) I started with rebuilding it to it's final destination: the track.

    With business drawing lots of my time the first part of this year I mainly spent my limited time on exploring posibilities and finding suitable parts.

    Among lots of small stuff I bought Nick Forza's direct ignition and suspension and polygraphite bushings, scored a complete 360 brakeset on ebay and started making some leightweigt parts. I also found a company able to make and welled in a perfect roll-overbar.(still to do unfortunately)
    After quite some considderation i also bought a used (but complete) Ameritec Turbo set.


    This week this set arrived and as it came fully complete it also contained the original installation manual. As I was on holidays the last week I spent my time wisely :):) reading through this quite large set of papers.

    I know this set has been discussed here now and than and that it basically, esspecially compared with the modern stuff, an old setup.
    However, after reading through the manual and two roadtests (copies were included too) The set really grown to me in a rather strange way.........


    Athough old the set actually seems very very well thought off. Not some average product of a home mechanic but actually the result of very thorough development by guys who did know were they were talking about!

    Not only they seems to have taken account for all technical details to make this a high end product but they also had a close eye on there future costumers. This translated into a very complete set consisting not only of all the parts needed for the job but also they included a whole range of stuff man would need to do a proper job.
    The set actually came with all kind of extra tools, hoses, clams etc etc. For me the summit in their eye for detail was that they included different colors of paint to mark the flywheel. (referred to in the manual)
    Another proof for their eager to sell a superproduct: the manual is normally printed but they include actuall pictures in it to make sure not any info on these pictures would disappear while copying.

    I unpacked some of the parts just to have a glance at them and all these parts does look very wel made. What I've seen is all stainless steel piping and very solid welding (i'm in the chemical business so i do know some about welding).
    All clamps are of very high quality and the specially designed parts like the inlet manfold collector are of very good quality too.


    I confess, i might be called stupid again for buying this set in the first place but what I saw and read so far made me realize that it's worth every penny i've paid. True, I will have a lot of work to do yet and obviously the set must proof itselfe but knowing I own one of these sets ( they appearently produced only 50 pcs) makes me truly happy.
     
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  3. Mfoncerrada

    Mfoncerrada Formula Junior

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    do you happen to have an internet link to more info on this set?
     
  4. st@ven

    st@ven F1 Rookie
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    #3 st@ven, Aug 5, 2010
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2010
    sorry I don't. I actually think the're isn't one. These sets were developped about 30+ years ago. (But you could try google)

    However, on ebay there's a guy ( Tony something) that still sells parts of these sets.
    Actually i contacted him first to find out if it was possible to buy a complete set. My first request was answered quite promptly stating he would try to get one complete. However, after some unanswered e-mails in the following weeks I luckily found a set on Graigslist.
     
  5. st@ven

    st@ven F1 Rookie
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    #4 st@ven, Aug 15, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    As the turbo set-up requires a different timing of the ignition i decided to be prepared and I bought an XDi ignition set-up from Nick Forza.

    Nick delivers this set completely prepared for the 308 and put in all nessecary stuff like ignition wiring, a costum made triggerwheel and a very good manual.

    It took quite some time to put it in in some left-over hours I had but today i finished it.
    As the car was parked from March on I was prepared for some diffculties so after a few steps on the pedal I gave it a try.
    Guess what! It ran almost instantly and idled at 900 right away.
    It seems that all you guys were telling is true. This is indeed an amazing piece of technology!
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  6. st@ven

    st@ven F1 Rookie
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    #5 st@ven, Aug 18, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    this week I finished the suspension as well.

    Now both rear and front are according to my liking. The stiffnes has improved greatly and the height of the car is like I had in mind. And adjustable too

    Next Saterday i made an appointment for a dyno run. Not to improve anything special but merely to set a baseline. After installation of the turbo i will go there again to get a good idea of the actual improvement.

    I realized that I should have done this before installation of the ignition but I simply didn't thought of that before.
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  8. FasterIsBetter

    FasterIsBetter F1 Veteran

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    Wow, looks like you are really going at it on preparing that 308 as a race car!! Hopefully, you'll take and post lots of pics as you go along. Looks like a great project.

    One comment, before you go too far with it -- my buddy Paul ("PAD" on here), has a race modified '83 308 QV. He has an electronic ignition in his, but unlike the XDi, his system allows external programing of the air-fuel ratios and timing. So he can map the entire curve from idle to redline, and modify it at will. The XDi box does not allow that. I had the XDi on my '78 308, and it does a good job for what it is. But the programming on it is limited, and only works on the timing. With the turbo unit, you probably need a control box that monitors and controls both timing and A/F mixture. In Paul's case, the Bosch FI system was removed and replaced with a high pressure electronic FI system, rather than relying on the mechanical Bosch system.

    Mike E on here is an expert with this stuff. You should consult some of his posts on here with regard to turbo and supercharging of these cars.

    Have fun, and look forward to watching your progress. A nice picture spread of the step-by-step installation of the turbo would be terrific!!!
     
  9. st@ven

    st@ven F1 Rookie
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    thanx for the comments Steve, they're highly appreciated.

    You're right about controlling the A/F ratio. However this old set-up uses a carburetor..
    This one is specially modified and came with the strick instruction not the change anything. (my base car is a carburetted '78 model, not a FI one)

    For me this project is mainly targeted at getting some experiences with supercharging. I will try to make the best of this setup and probably will move on after that.
    Main goal is to make the 308 into a reasonable track car. I know, this may sound not that clever but learning all about setting it up properly is a big part of my fun.

    To go fast(er) immediately I know I probably better had started with a 355 or 360 but the challange of making a 308 go fast is much bigger (and I do like these challanges, doing the undo-able!)

    However, as a next step 'm alreay dreaming of a 308 with a supercharged (blower) 328 engine.

    finally: i miss Mike E too....
     
  10. FasterIsBetter

    FasterIsBetter F1 Veteran

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    If you want to go faster immediately, do what I did -- buy a C5 Corvette Z06!! Best track car, dollar for dollar, you will ever find, IMHO. And generally a heck of a lot safer than those old cars, with plenty of inexpensive track and HP upgrades available.

    I had a '78 carbed car. I've heard about that turbo kit for the carbed cars, but never wanted to mess around with it. Remember, when you increase HP, speed, etc., you can no longer rely on the brakes and suspension to handle the loads. I saw you got the 360 brake setup, and that certainly should help. Think about suspension setup also, as that will take a lot more loading, especially in the corners.

    Yeah, miss Mike here too.
     
  11. BillyD

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    Steven,
    The only Turbo kit I've seen on a carbed 308 used a Holley Carb. Is that what u have or are you going F.I. or ????
    Bill
    ps glad to see your project coming along.
     
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  13. GrayTA

    GrayTA F1 World Champ
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    I miss Mk E as well.

    @Steven - I love to see your work. I am very happy to see the progress and look forward to the new updates!!!

    Thanks for sharing!!!



    PDG
     
  14. st@ven

    st@ven F1 Rookie
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    #11 st@ven, Aug 21, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    sharing is part of the fun The occasional feedback is always great to recieve.


    Anoway, today i had my dynorun. Not a real dyno-brand centre but according to the owner their equipment is within a 2% spec.
    For me not that important as this test will mainly serve as baseline for the test after installation of the turbo set but it's nice to know that the actual figure is quite accurate.

    Tester did two runs, the first one serves as a testrun(the blue lines), the second as the actual test.(the red lines)
    maximum power was 180,8 bhp at 6.7K rpm. According to the commonly excepted drivetrain loss of 17% this is 216bhp at the engine. I'm pretty happy with this figure (stock engine with electronitve ingnition and hy flow inletvalves) The owner of the shop was actually quite impressed, especially the smoothness of the torque line made him very enthousiastic.

    just for the fun of it, take a look at my cars moment of glory at
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNPMiKZqsGQ

    For the real techs I attached the graphics as well
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  15. theunissenguido

    theunissenguido Formula 3
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    Wow, almost 8.000 rpm....fantastic, Steven.
    Do you really need a turbo with those figers ?
    Keep it coming....

    Guido
     
  16. st@ven

    st@ven F1 Rookie
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    Hi Guido, are you still doing well?

    I set the rev limiter at 7700. Just to be save.

    And no you're absolutely right, I don't need it but it's just fun. And basically having fun is the only thing that counts in the end.

    One of the guys asked me how it compared to the 328.
    This turned out to be a hard one. The (lack of) suspension, the noise due to removement of nearly all interior materials and of coarse the sound of the Webers. It all ads up to a feeling if i'm in a racingcar already. It feels very swift and quick.

    I pretty sure my 328 with it's relative smooth springs, it's (semi)airconditioned cabin climate, and it almost lack of noise will outrun it in both acceleration and topspeed but the gtb just feels quicker already. :):)
     
  17. CliffBeer

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    Steven,

    Sounds like you have a lot of fun parts there!

    The turbo kit sounds like a well engineered and nicely detailed setup. I'm guessing the kit is made for FI, correct?

    If you plan on keeping the carburetors then it's going to get complicated very quickly - you need to either pressurize the carbs individually (very difficult w/o re-engineering the carbs) or put all in a pressurized box ala maserati biturbo - not easy either.

    Alternatively the CIS injection off a later 308 might be workable but CIS is a low-performance FI system, frankly. You'd probably best best off using a EFI system with separate injectors for pulsed injection off a common fuel rail. You could still use the CIS plenum and inlet manifolds for plumbing the compressed fuel charge. There are some good EFI systems out there that are semi-off the shelf and tubable/adaptable.

    Good luck!
     
  18. st@ven

    st@ven F1 Rookie
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    Thanks Cliff


    I think you right about the engineering. It's surely looks very well thought of both on paper and in real life.

    But, it's not based on FI. It's even older! This Ameritech setup is based on a single four barrel carburetor (part of the set) which is setup and tuned for this particular use. Obviously a very old fashioned system for current standards but i do feel it can perform.
    In the old days things like electronic ( FI, management etc) on an engine simply were not available but the need for speed was there.

    So oldfashionned: Yes sure. Useless? no way. These guys simply made the best out of the parts available at that time ( >30 years ago) to increase HP on a car.

    According to the different old car tests i found they did succeed. In some test the car did 0-60 in less than 5 seconds at any single attempt, Topspeed after 1 mile standinfg start run increased with a staggerimg 14 mph
    Dynoruns I have not found yet but I guess they made a few in those days.

    Anyway, as I wrote before, for me this whole thing provides me with the oppertunity to learn and play with supercharging. For me it's all new but i do think it's great to learn about this stuff this way.


    About the stock carbs. Some time ago I came across a setup from a member here who indeed used the stock Webers in a pressure box. ( tried to find it now but failed)If i recall correctly he was driving around with it for a pretty long time not having any real difficulties. I guess if you indeed put the four webers in a sealed pressure box (after the obvious playing around with the all jetts)this could work as well.

    I bought this systyem as a used system from a guy who used it for years on his car. His goal at that time was simply to have some more pep and the system provided. He pulled the system and put the car back to stock when selling it. I'm still in contact with him and he truly seems like an honest guy very prepared to help me with any questions. He even seems to enjoy the fact that some old nut tries to get the set working again:)


    The comming months i will make some time to instal. After that i will go back for another dyno run. Can't wait to see the results of that!
     
  19. CliffBeer

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    Hi Steven,

    Ah, understood. Yes, that's what we call "Old Skool".....but no doubt a pretty interesting and effective package if installed properly.

    Nothing wrong with a single four barrel carb - that's also Old Skook and keeps things simple...much easier to put in a box, or separately charge/seal if not in a box. Frankly, in most side-by-side comparison tests a single four barrel Holley double pumper makes as much hp/tq as separate webers due to breathing enhancement allowed by a common plenum and the pulse action of the intake charge for individual cylinders.

    If you're looking for additional technical details/support, perhaps take a look at a maser biturbo from the early 80's these were a single-carb-in-box arrangement (but for a 2.5ltr rather than 3.0ltr)...and worked very well.

    Good luck!
     
  20. st@ven

    st@ven F1 Rookie
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    #17 st@ven, Aug 27, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017


    old skool is nice!


    anyway,
    I started with the installation and so far it all seems pretty straigh forward. And realy easy too. No way this will take me some months as I state earlier
    In Fact I think need just only one more day to complete it. Cannot wait for the first drive.

    some pictures.
    1 prepare: meaning among other, through out the webers..... (does hurt a bit.)
    2 progress
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  21. st@ven

    st@ven F1 Rookie
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    Put on the turbo for real, turbo heat shield, oilfeed and oil return line, pipe from the turbo to the muffler, the exhaust collecting pipe and the exhaust main pipe to the turbo.
    figured out the lokation of the wastegates (there are two)

    Tomorrow I'll start with the wastegate installation and wastegate line to the inlet manifold. After that comes the muffler and than i continue with the inlet parts.

    if nothing bad appears the car should run at the end of the day.

    However, there's one thing that might keep it from running properly: the original set contained a holley fuelpomp to repalce the stock one. This one appeared missing and I don't have a clou of why the original pump wasn't up to the task. (pressure? flow?)Somebody any thoughts on this?
     
  22. CliffBeer

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    Looking good there Steven.

    My eyes must be failing me - where's the holley in there? somewhere buried in the inlet manifold downstream of the turbo??

    The holley (if it's a typical holley four barrel) likes about 5psi which is a hair higher than the 3.5-4.0 that the webers like. That's not enough to call for a fuel pump change I wouldn't think, but perhaps the kit designers included a holley pump just to make sure that regardless of the application (and existing pump) the holley is getting the right fuel pressure. Just a thought.
     
  23. 2dinos

    2dinos F1 Rookie

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    Very-very cool! How does the fuel get in there??
     
  24. st@ven

    st@ven F1 Rookie
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    #21 st@ven, Aug 30, 2010
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2010
    thanx again for the support.


    after one initial problem with a hanging float the car started right away.
    Than, after carefull checking for leaks i did a first round the block. It runs!

    after again some checking for leakage or any other ill fortune i took a bigger round ( 3km) and gave some more throttle. It goes like hell! But, with putting it really down quite a big smoke curtain appeared.:(:(:( It seems that the turbo is leaking oil through the seals. BUMMER!

    I will take a short trip this week but i guess i have to get it out again next weekend. Rebuilding this old piece will be hard so i think I will look for a new or upgraded model.

    But despite this small setback I'm pretty happy. The short run showed the potential: it's fast!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alELOlVp3KQ
     
  25. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Great video!

    I liked the Heinken Girls one, too!!
     
  26. st@ven

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    #23 st@ven, Oct 29, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    it's been a while but i like to share some small updates.


    First I had the turbo on the dyno, it came to a nice 240,9 bhp on the wheels so with 17% loss this counts for 290 on the crank. Not the promised 320 but i'm still pretty content.

    Only this week I worked on the car again. I bought some really nice carbon bucketseats and after some hussle with positioning ( man those gtb are small!) today I finished this one too. Compared to the original seats the weight is about half.

    Now time is on my side again for the next few months so i will really go on with all the leightweighting.

    Keep you posted!
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  27. FasterIsBetter

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    The setup looks great, but just a couple of comments:

    First, you have not installed the shoulder harnesses properly. This is a common mistake, but could be very serious in a crash. The harness is not threaded properly through the buckle. It should go through the seat, then through the buckle, then UNDER the bar and up and over. Then pass it through the buckle again from back toward the front. And then, you flip the harness strap backwards, up over the front of the buckle and pass it through the rear cross-piece of the buckle. The loose tail should hang down over the cross-bar. Also, the buckle MUST be as close as possible to the bar. This will prevent the shoulder harness from slipping in case of a crash, which is the whole point of having a harness to begin with. If you want to see pictures of a proper installation, Google "racing seat belt installation" and a bunch of websites come up showing how to properly thread the shoulder harness belts. By the way, if your lap belts use a similar type buckle as the shoulders, they should be threaded the same way.

    My second comment has to do with the lack of a submarine belt (crotch strap). A lap and shoulder harness (4-point) set-up is not acceptable in most racing venues. Most sponsoring authorities want a 5-point or 6-point harness. If you cannot get a crotch belt installed and properly secured, you should look into the 6-point "fighter pilot" style of belt setup. In a crash, the forces can push you under a lap belt (submarining) and cause some serious injury.

    Keep up the good work, and be safe out there.
     
  28. st@ven

    st@ven F1 Rookie
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    thanks for that cooment! I will change it first thing tomorrow!


    about the fifth strap. it will be there but i had t oorder them separately and they are not arrved yet. (The seat do have the hole for it)
     

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