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355 Cam phase sensor malfunction

Discussion in '348/355' started by taz355, May 11, 2019.

  1. taz355

    taz355 F1 Rookie
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    Feb 18, 2008
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    So the computer is showing a cam phase sensor failure
    Car definately dropped a bank big time.
    Says bank 1

    I did not think i have seen this failure on a 355 posted before
    Anyway i will keep you guys posted.
    If anyone else has had this let us know what it sounds like and what happens.

    Mine sounded like the motor was pumping air.
    Good oil pressure, good water temp and everything else seems ok.
    Motor would barely run and i shut it down right away.
     
  2. johnk...

    johnk... F1 Veteran
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    Hi grant,

    It's probably the sensor but you might diagnose properly before replacing. Check continuity of the wires between the phase sensor connector and the ECU connector. If there is continuity for all wires, the sensor is probably bad. If there is a lack of continuity pull the pins out of the connector and see if the wire is broken at the crimp.

    Before you replace, search for the Bosch part. I believe it's Bosch 0232103006, about $64.
    https://www.stockwiseauto.com/bosch-0232103006-engine-crankshaft-position-sensor?Year=1998&Make=Ferrari&Model=456 GT

    Or, how much is your time worth? Just replace it. :)

    PS. The link say crank, but it means cam.
     
  3. Qavion

    Qavion Formula 3

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    F1 Motronics Wiring diagram here (look for the blue plug)

    I guess the car is designed to only drop one bank, even though the cam phase sensor feeds both banks.
     
  4. taz355

    taz355 F1 Rookie
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    Thanks guys
    Did you ever have one go John?
    Was talking with Daverocks and he thought he might have seen a post on here.
    I will try a search but usually i remember that stuff.
     
  5. johnk...

    johnk... F1 Veteran
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    No. I had a problem with a crank sensor on my 2.7 car which caused the engine to breakup badly at 4500 RPM, like a rev limiter, on the 1-4 bank. Thought it was the crank sensor at first but it turned out to be a wire that broke inside the insulation right at the crimp to the pin in the connector. I guess that the engine vibration was just right at 4500 to make the wire separate and drop the signal.

    Actually, I did have a cam sensor fail once on my old BMW. It still ran, though not well. Usually there is some default programed into the ECU so the engine will still run. But who know with Ferrari.
     
  6. emac

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    FWIW, I had a coolant leak that was allowing coolant to get down into the crank sensor. Every time I would make a turn the water would mess up the sensor and the car would miss, cough, and spit. Then get better. Fixed water leak, and replaced sensor.
     
  7. taz355

    taz355 F1 Rookie
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    In my case it was much worse as the car would idle barely and almost sounded like it was pumping air from bank 1.

    Time will tell if thatwas only problem.
     
  8. yelcab

    yelcab F1 Veteran
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    emac and taz are talking about different sensors, one crank and the other cam phase.
     
  9. taz355

    taz355 F1 Rookie
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    #9 taz355, May 12, 2019
    Last edited: May 12, 2019
    Yes I understood that but thanks for clarification for others.
    According to workshop manual on my 99 the crank is to only tell ecu where tdc is and the rpm.
    The cam sensor(which according to obd2 failed )identifies the injection and ignition timing for cylinder 1. The rest follow suit according to the firing order.So they work together. I just thought the engine would react differently if this sensor was malfunctioning or quit.
     
  10. emac

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    My point was that it may be something, like a poor connection, not the actual sensor failing. Sorry for the confusion.
     
  11. taz355

    taz355 F1 Rookie
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    Ian can you explain why my main ecu has 3 rows and you only identify 2
    From the diagram
     
  12. yelcab

    yelcab F1 Veteran
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    I am having same issue withe my old BMW 5 series where the exhaust cam actuator is out of whack. The car runs fine after it figures out that the signal is bad so there must be a default or backup profile it is using.

    If it is smart enough, it really only needs to know RPM and TDC, it can estimate where to fire the rest of the other cylinders fr0m there.
     
  13. taz355

    taz355 F1 Rookie
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    Yes thats what i am worried about that maybe its something else
    Going to check the plug first for continuity and voltage
     
  14. Qavion

    Qavion Formula 3

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    #14 Qavion, May 13, 2019
    Last edited: May 13, 2019
    It's just the way it was represented on the original diagram, Grant (That's how the numbers were squeezed into one line).

    If I can find a photo of the 5.2 plug, I'll try to add it to my diagram. Note that on the plug itself, there are tiny numbers at the end of the rows to show the numbering system.
     
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  15. johnk...

    johnk... F1 Veteran
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    It needs more than TDC and RPM because it needs to know or figure out whether it's at TDC on the compression or exhaust stroke. But there generally are defaults that allow the car to run.
     
  16. Qavion

    Qavion Formula 3

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    I don't know if this updated diagram is any use, Grant. I've added brackets in the ECU box to show the 3 rows. Also, I've drawn a plug below it, showing the pin arrangement.

    5.2 Engine Management Wiring Diagram (F1 car)

    It's easier to read if you put the diagram on an iPad so you can expand and scroll the picture. You may find some colour variations relating to O2 heater wires on later 5.2 cars.
     
  17. Qavion

    Qavion Formula 3

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    If you think there might be a continuity problem:

    Regarding the cam phase sensor pins:
    Pin 1 goes to pin 5 of the smaller (9-pin) plug near the Motronics ECU via the splices marked "30001". Pin 5 gets power from the Injector Control Relay ("M" on my gated car) in the footwell. The engine would die completely if that relay failed.

    Pin 2 goes to Motronics ECU connector pin 21 (if you position the connector cable to your right, pin 21 is on the top row, 7th from the left). That's the pulse signal from the cam sensor.

    Pin 3 goes to the major earth on the back of the engine block (rhs). You can check the earth, but I think you'd have a lot more stuff going on if that was faulty.
     
  18. taz355

    taz355 F1 Rookie
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    gotcha
    thanks all. I am at work now its 1030 but I will check it out tonight. Was using my gallileo to diagnose some stuff but I was just smart enough to out smart my self haha.

    I think Matt has me all sorted so we will see tonight.

    I just have a hard time thinking that the engine would run that poorly (idles for about 10 seconds at 600 rpm or so.) just because of this so I may have more issues.
     
  19. johnk...

    johnk... F1 Veteran
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    Don't over think things:

    Symptoms of a Bad or Failing Camshaft Position Sensor
    • Vehicle does not drive like it used to. If your vehicle idles roughly, stalls frequently, has a drop in engine power, stumbles frequently, has reduced gas mileage, or accelerates slowly, these are all signs your camshaft position sensor could be failing. ...
     
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  20. Qavion

    Qavion Formula 3

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    Sorry, late night... pin 21 is the 8th from the left
     
  21. taz355

    taz355 F1 Rookie
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    No problem
    Really really have too thank you all for your inputs.

    Now my obd2 scanner said cam sensor failure but I was playing with my leonardo and it shows this

    This kind of makes me think its the crankshaft sensor but the car does idle just very rough at about 600 rpm, it will die but if i give a little gas on then off right away, it would keep idling likely for as long as i kept doing that.

    Of course i live in canada and they told me it would be 4 weeks for a sensor and it was 400 bucks.

    I checked online and have the oreilly autoparts in Indio where i live as well checking
    There its 98 bucks
    I think ricambi is about 350 bucks
     
  22. yelcab

    yelcab F1 Veteran
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    Grant, change your cam phase sensor (Stroke sensor?) and see if the problem goes away. I learn to trust the OBD2 diagnostic. It's right most of the times.
     
  23. taz355

    taz355 F1 Rookie
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    Thanks Mitchel
    Trying to order one but sometimes living up here is like a third world country when it comes to car parts
     
  24. yelcab

    yelcab F1 Veteran
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    Third world country ,,, that is where the sensors are made.
     
  25. johnk...

    johnk... F1 Veteran
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    Grant, I gave you a link above for the cam phase sensor at $65. Genuine Bosch part.

    See Post 2.

    Also, the car would not start at all with a bad crank sensor. ECU won't sense rotation and won't turn on injectors or spark.
     

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