355 - Cam phase sensor malfunction | Page 6 | FerrariChat

355 Cam phase sensor malfunction

Discussion in '348/355' started by taz355, May 11, 2019.

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  1. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
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    Nov 29, 2001
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    Mitchell Le
    He already swapped out for a know good TCU and that is not the problem so … moving on
     
  2. taz355

    taz355 F1 Veteran
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    So i plugged everything in and started car. Car only runs about 10 to 15 seconds before quiting.

    In that time i set the scope to 1ms and 10ms. I set the sale to 2 volts per division

    I think i am only getting noise because the signal is very erratic. There is a pulse type peak that goes up to about 6 division high but it does not really change when i change the scale to 1 or 5 volts per division.
    I think i will try it on the good bank 2 so i can get the settings correct.

    Again i am leaning towards a main ecu but likely because i am a bit out of my comfort zone scopes and all.

    My conclusion would be no signal,which is what my timing light told me as well. I know coil is working, i know thermo ecu is working,
    I am fairly sure the cam phase sensors is working, so there is not much else left that i can see.

    Is there any way to force the bank 1 coil to fire other than another ecu??

    Also i know its bad at the ecu because i have continuity from the ecu to the coil on the trigger wires.

    I think i am understanding things correctly

    I am getting power to the coil when ignition turns on.

    Battery is fully charged according to gauge. About 13.5 volts without car running
     
  3. m.stojanovic

    m.stojanovic F1 Rookie
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    There is no signal coming out of the ECU for the ignition coil. The coil has +12V on its middle pin and the side pins are switched to ground by the ECU, alternating one and the other according to the firing order. You can possibly check whether the ECU is switching to ground if you unplug the connector from the coil and connect an LED diode as shown on the picture. The LED should blink when the engine is cranked (fuel pump relay taken out). You may be able to use a car bulb instead of the LED/Resistor but the bulbs are slow to light up and may not catch the brief pulses.

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  4. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    How are you tapping into the signal? Needle into wire or checking at ECU connector backplug?
     
  5. taz355

    taz355 F1 Veteran
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    #130 taz355, May 20, 2019
    Last edited: May 20, 2019
    I made sure i had continuity from main ecu to the coil plug at back of car for bank 1.
    I then back probed the plug when it was plugged into coil pack for bank 1.
    I checked continuity again just to be sure and it was ok
    I do not think it was grounding as it should which would explain why the coils are not firing. The scope was not giving a good signal.

    I had the leed of the scope clipped to the pin 49.
    The short wire from the scope lead was put to grounding pin on chassis over beside the positive charging lugs.
    Not sure if this is correct but was my understanding of what Mitchell had said
     
  6. taz355

    taz355 F1 Veteran
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    I thought i proved this when i tried a known working coil. If it was switching i would get spark because i know coil is working.
    Yes there is 12 volts at the center pin of coil.
     
  7. taz355

    taz355 F1 Veteran
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    When i get the ecu and plug it in if it still does not work what would have we missed?
    I dont think we missed anything?
     
  8. taz355

    taz355 F1 Veteran
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  9. taz355

    taz355 F1 Veteran
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    Hopefully the same
     
  10. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    #135 Qavion, May 20, 2019
    Last edited: May 20, 2019
    So one lead was on the ECU backplug pin 49 and you used a long extension wire to hook up the crocodile clip scope lead to get to the grounding stud in the engine bay? It would have been easier to hook up the crocodile clip to pin 6 on the ECU plug.

    Well, there could always be wiring shorts to ground, taking the trigger volts away from the coil pack. When you do continuity checks on specific pairs of pins, it doesn't mean that the wires are not rubbing against the chassis at some point. The best way to check for shorts is by disconnecting the plugs at both ends (ECU and coilpack) and make sure that the outside wires on the 3 pin plug are not shorted to ground. Put one of your ohmmeter leads on pin 1 (or 3) and the other to an earth on the chassis or engine. Hopefully you get open circuit.

    Does the Ferrari cam sensor respond to a special tooth on the cam or lack of teeth at a particular point on the cam? On other type of cars, I've heard these teeth can be damaged and the sensor can no longer pick up the signal (but then it's usually an improperly shimmed sensor which damages the teeth and/or the sensor and this would be easily noticed).

    I'd say the most likely problem now would be a damaged ignition driver chip in the ECU. These are easily repaired (by ECU repair companies) on regular cars, but the Ferrari ECU has that immobiliser circuit. I tried to identify the chips in online pics, but not all the Bosch chips showed up in Google.

    http://ferrariworkshop.com/content/4-motronic-5-2-ecu-modding-performance-1996-99-a.html

    Off-topic, but the chip circled in yellow is the immobiliser chip.
     
  11. m.stojanovic

    m.stojanovic F1 Rookie
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    Based on all the checks you have done, it appears to be the problem is in the ECU. Hopefully, the engine will be back to normal with the second ECU.

    If the second ECU proves that the first one developed a fault, you can try to repair it (or have it repaired). The failure of one bank ignition could be simply due to a PC board solder that went "dry" or a failure of the ignition power transistors. You can try to trace the links of the ECU pins that are connected to the ignition coil side pins to determine which transistors control them. However, since the whole bank is not firing, it would mean that both transistors (for one and for the other side pins of the coil) have failed simultaneously which is unlikely. The pictures below shows an example of a 5.2 ECU (a 4 cylinder car) and the ignition transistors and links inside it.

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  12. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    Did the oscilloscope work on the left bank?
     
  13. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    #138 Qavion, May 20, 2019
    Last edited: May 20, 2019
    Just reading the Workshop Manual. I see the Ferrari uses a special rotor attached to the end of the cam. I'm not sure how it is attached to cam. Anyway, if the rotor had come off the end of the cam, you would expect both banks to be affected.

    Here's a shot of a bent cam rotor on a Ferrari:

    (Third photo)
    https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/posts/140047831/
     
  14. johnk...

    johnk... F1 World Champ
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    This is what you should see at the trigger pins (pins 1 and 3 at the coil or what ever they are at the ECU). Pin 1 or 3 will be at 12 V. Then when the ECU switches the voltage will drop to zero, then rise slightly due to resistance in the primary side of the coil. When the ECU opens the circuit again there will be a large spike and a quick recovery to 12V.

    The picture is from checking my 308 but there is no reason the 355 should be any different.

    Still concerned about why there was a cam sensor code. OBD II isn't usually wrong. The cam sensor signal can be checked with the scope.

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  15. jjtjr

    jjtjr Formula Junior

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    That is exactly what I would do before replacing a very expensive ECU. I have a node light for checking injector/coil pulses that takes out the guesswork. But in this case, I think Grant has determined the wiring from the ECU to the coil is good, the coil is good and has a good 12V feed so I would lean toward either a bad ignition module (internal to the ECU) or some other logic influence that would intentionally take out the spark signal. Grant, did you confirm that you have injector signal for the dead bank? If there was no injector signal for that bank, then I would lean toward the logic.
     
  16. m.stojanovic

    m.stojanovic F1 Rookie
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    If the injectors were firing without any ignition, you would get a lot of petrol smell. I guess there is a safety feature in the ECU which, if the ignition circuitry fails, will shut down the injectors.
     
  17. jjtjr

    jjtjr Formula Junior

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    I can't imagine Bosch building in a safety feature to stop injectors. But yes, you would have a strong fuel odor. I suppose the ECU may use the same drivers for the injectors as the primary coils so the failure would cause the loss of both. Does anyone know if the Motronic is EFI or is it sequential injection?
     
  18. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Has anyone checked the simple wiring connections even going back to ecu?

    If you look closely often the female pins are spread open on the motronic connector block.
     
  19. taz355

    taz355 F1 Veteran
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    Yes as you can very easily smell the gas. As a matter of fact after running for about 15 seconds the rhs exhaust has fuel vapour coming out as a light smoke.
    I did not check the injectors like you said though.
     
  20. taz355

    taz355 F1 Veteran
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    Yes checked them all, for the bank 1 coil, they are all good. No unusual gaps on any of them actually.
     
  21. taz355

    taz355 F1 Veteran
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    What were your sett8ngs on the scope.
     
  22. taz355

    taz355 F1 Veteran
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    My picture does not have the bright horizontal line and i believe the spike only went above not below
     
  23. jjtjr

    jjtjr Formula Junior

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    I would believe that if there was something logic related (like an SDU) that the protocol would be to shut down fuel for sure (the last thing you want to do is to push raw fuel down to a red hot cat) and probably leave spark alone. That would leave you with a more probable ECU issue.
     
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  24. taz355

    taz355 F1 Veteran
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    I did say that but actually i checked it at the coil plug and back probed the plug and had a short 6 inch extension on the ground pin by the positive lugs
     
  25. taz355

    taz355 F1 Veteran
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    Just wanted to make sure it was hooked up correct be ause we are checking a grounding signal and also grounding from the probe so i did not completely understand that logic
     

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