355 - Cam phase sensor malfunction | Page 9 | FerrariChat

355 Cam phase sensor malfunction

Discussion in '348/355' started by taz355, May 11, 2019.

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  1. taz355

    taz355 F1 Veteran
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    Feb 18, 2008
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    If i pushed a small pin in through the back of the plug for the pin 2 and hooked to 12 volts once ignition on will that work too boost the 12 supply??
    This would likely be the easiest without splicing
     
  2. m.stojanovic

    m.stojanovic F1 Rookie
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    This is certainly worth checking. The current through the primary side of the coil is some 8-10 Amp.
     
  3. m.stojanovic

    m.stojanovic F1 Rookie
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    You can also just stick into the back of pin 2 a wire with, say, about 1/4 in insulation removed and tape it around the three wires so it does not move.
     
  4. m.stojanovic

    m.stojanovic F1 Rookie
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    Connections to the secondary coils is not necessarily 1/4 and 2/3. It may be in different combinations depending on the firing order of the particular engine.
     
  5. taz355

    taz355 F1 Veteran
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    So i jumpered the supply voltage to the coil bank 1 and started car and it did not solve the issue.

    I did forget to tell everyone that when i checked it with the scope last night the injectors were unplugged because of the major gas smell i was accumulating.

    Today when i added the second 12 volt supply i also reconnected the injectors but still nothing.

    I have hooked the scope up to to 12 v center supply at the coil if you want me to get another trace while running do the injectors need
    Too be plugged in??
     
  6. taz355

    taz355 F1 Veteran
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    The back of the plug likely will need closer to a half inch its quite a ways to the plug, past the water seal etc.
     
  7. m.stojanovic

    m.stojanovic F1 Rookie
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    It is probably better just to remove the fuel pump relay.
     
  8. taz355

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    If i do that i dont think bank 2 will run? Need to check but with 1 fuel pump i would assume 1 relay shuts down everything
     
  9. m.stojanovic

    m.stojanovic F1 Rookie
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    You don't need to run the engine, just crank. Hopefully the ECU does not recognise that the pump relay is out and will still try to fire the injectors and the ignition. With the injectors disconnected, it is more likely that the ECU will recognise that and may not fire the ignition on that bank. You can try either way, the scope will show whether the supply to Pin 2 gets loaded or not. If loaded, you should be able to see small voltage drops.
     
  10. m.stojanovic

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  11. taz355

    taz355 F1 Veteran
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    Ok i will try it with injectors in and fuel pump running just to make sure computer is not doing something thats unknown
     
  12. taz355

    taz355 F1 Veteran
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    I do not really understand your voltages because my voltage is set at 5 volts per division?
     
  13. m.stojanovic

    m.stojanovic F1 Rookie
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    Strange, that would mean that you have only 5V on the ignition coil primary which is not the case. I thought you set the division at 10V, like on the graph from the manual:

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  14. taz355

    taz355 F1 Veteran
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  15. taz355

    taz355 F1 Veteran
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    Any insites
    Whats the multiplier thing do?
     
  16. m.stojanovic

    m.stojanovic F1 Rookie
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    I am not really familiar with oscilloscopes, bu it could be to do with your multiplier setting. If you put it a "X1" you may get realistic readings in relation to the horizontal grid. You can also try with the Time/Div at 2 mS which will give you more horizontally stretched ignition graph (more like on the graph from the manual).
     
  17. taz355

    taz355 F1 Veteran
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    Can you explain this diagram in detail from the manual just for clarification. I know you all have kinda done it for mine but this diagram is much cleaner
     
  18. taz355

    taz355 F1 Veteran
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    Ok
    I will do that tomorrow night. Thanks
     
  19. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    Thanks, Miro. I also found the original Bosch 5.2 diagram has a similar setup to yours (This diagram is helpful in some respects, but not in others e.g. no wire colours).
    I've removed those misleading Ferrari spark plug component numbers from my diagram and hooked up the spark plugs to the correct coils. I found some conflicting information in the various diagrams that I have, so I also did some wiring checks on my own car and corrected where necessary. I've added a few extra labels to show how the coil pack plug pins are numbered. Perhaps it would be best in future to refer to this diagram.

    5.2 Engine Control System v5

    5.2 Engine Control System v27
     
  20. m.stojanovic

    m.stojanovic F1 Rookie
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    Thanks, saved the updated diagrams. I attach a list of the 348 diagrams (I probably renamed the files) that you produced which I saved over time as you attached them to various posts. I would appreciate if you could post here any other 348 diagrams that you may have produced that are not in my list.
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  21. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    Miro, all my diagrams are in a constant state of flux so I don't know how up to date your copies are. It's usually best to click on the original links as I update those as required. Anyway, I'll upload my latest ones in a big zip file.

    Ferrari F348 Wiring Diagram zip file

    There were some wires on the 2.7 car which didn't make sense, so I proposed a theoretical version (also included). I don't know if you've seen a mousetrack seat belt car, but I've included diagrams for those, too.

    Corrections welcome )
     
  22. m.stojanovic

    m.stojanovic F1 Rookie
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    Fantastic, thanks a lot.
     
  23. m.stojanovic

    m.stojanovic F1 Rookie
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    For probably easier understanding of the ignition graph, I have flipped it over which would be the recording on the scope if connected to the two ends (Pins 1 & 2) of the ignition coil primary, with the negative of the probe to Pin 1. The flyback voltage spike is shown as negative as it has opposite polarity of the polarity of the 12V applied to the coil before it is cut-off.

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    As for the current flow through the ignition coil primary windings, it is as shown on this graph:

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    The 10 Amp current through the coil is approximate but it is normally thereabouts (+/-). During the shown "Primary Charging Time", the current is not immediately 10 Amp but rises gradually from zero to 10 Amp. This actually occurs over a very short period of time - the coil charging time, i.e. the coil's magnetic field charging time. The gradual rise is due to the inductive resistance of the coil while its magnetic field is being built up. Once the magnetic field is up to its maximum, the inductive resistance disappears and only the thermal resistance of the coil is left which allows higher current flow. This maximum current is actually limited by the ignition circuitry, otherwise it would go up to some 25 Amp since the coil's primary (thermal) resistance is about 0.5 Ohm. During the shown "Primary Saturation" time, nothing happens except that the ignition coil is being heated-up. To prevent the coil overheating, this time is limited by the ignition (intelligent) circuitry.
     
  24. jjtjr

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    Gotcha. A low tech test could be to install a meter in series and apply a load to the 12V feed to the coil and see how many amps it will carry. (as suggested in post 197) Or piggyback the circuit (as suggested in post 189)
     
  25. m.stojanovic

    m.stojanovic F1 Rookie
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    It is not really possible to read the Amps through the coil primary with an ammeter as the current flow comes in brief pulses for which the ammeter (digital or analogue) is not fast enough. The only way is oscilloscope.
     

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