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Cam-variator horror story, any input please!!!

Discussion in '360/430' started by E60 M5, Jun 21, 2007.

  1. RayJohns

    RayJohns F1 Veteran
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    At the end of the day, FNA is the final word (pretty much). I guess they can decide to handle things however they want. It does appear that their bulletin outlines what to do in a case where the varaitor is required, but belts have already been done. The way I read it, it appears to say FNA will warranty 4.7 hours of work. I don't know if they also change the belt, but as you see on the first page, they appear to say you can reuse the belt if it has less than 20k miles on it (or two years of age).

    Again, FNA is the final word, since they pickup the bill.

    I had a situation with FNA a while back regarding my fuel sending unit. On the early 360, there was a design error which resulted in the gas gauge only reading 3/4 full, even though the tank was full. Clearly this was a problem with how the car was made. However, the way FNA handled it was to issue a bulletin about it, then sort of take names for people that complained about the problem. When they got around to it later, they fixed all the cars where people had complained. But, here is the catch, if you didn't complain, they didn't fix it.

    Okay, so when I bought my car, it had this problem (my car is a 2001). I contacted FNA and they explained that the only way they would warranty the work was if the pervious owner had made a note of the problem with his dealer. If it "had been noted" perviously, then they would repair it free of charge. If not, I was on my own. I pointed out that this was clearly a problem in the design, but FNA said it didn't matter. My feeling was it should be fixed in any event. Their stance was they would only fix it if someone had previously noted the problem. In my case, this was never done, so I was effectively on my own.

    I thanked FNA for their time and said "okay, no problem". I ended up fixing the problem myself and installed a new sending unit. It only took about 4 hours and a few hundred bucks. The way I look at it was: yes, I'd like it if Ferrari fixed it, but they have their view on it and that's fine. Ferrari isn't Toyota or Honda. If I decide to drive a race car on the street, I may have to go above and beyond the call of duty in some cases. It's okay by me. I don't mind getting my hands dirty or spending a few extra bucks. Overall, FNA treats their customers very, very well. Whatever their call is on handling some issue/part, etc. then I accept that and work with what I have - then get back to enjoying the car.

    Ray
     
  2. Maranello Racing Cars

    Maranello Racing Cars Formula Junior

    Jul 13, 2006
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    Wil
  3. RayJohns

    RayJohns F1 Veteran
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    #28 RayJohns, Jun 21, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    here is a cross section showing the old vs. new variator part. I don't know exactly what the change does, as it looks fairly minor. Perhaps Wil may have some further insight into it. I would guess it may have something to do with strength or oil flow (?) but that is just a guess. Perhaps the metal was changed to make it stronger. I really don't know.

    Anyway, here is the pic I saved a while back.

    Ray
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  4. Maranello Racing Cars

    Maranello Racing Cars Formula Junior

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    #29 Maranello Racing Cars, Jun 21, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  5. Ricambi America

    Ricambi America F1 World Champ
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    Honestly, this whole thread can only get worse with time. Make an appointment to get the variators installed. Once the new ones are installed (and a belt service done) the warranty clock resets itself with regard to parts, and you'll have FoW and FNA back "on the hook" for a period of time.

    Do it once, do it right, make it last.
     
  6. sezme

    sezme Formula Junior

    Oct 23, 2006
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    What year did FNA correct this problem? Is it specific to older cars - or to ALL 360's??

    Stu
     
  7. Ricambi America

    Ricambi America F1 World Champ
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    Engine 62819 and later are ok, per the above listed posting.
     
  8. Joe G.

    Joe G. Formula 3
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    like Daniel said "pay the $2500 bucks and get it over with already"

    doesn't sound like a "horror" story to me .....stop over reacting......keep thinking about it vs. getting it done and it'll become a "HORROR STORY" fur sure


    just get the thing fixed and get on with it....jeez
     
  9. Ricambi America

    Ricambi America F1 World Champ
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    #34 Ricambi America, Jun 21, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  10. E60 M5

    E60 M5 Moderator
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    Hey butt clown, I am not over reacting, I am asking for informative information into a serious situation, none of which you have provided! I am getting the job done, maybe you can't read I don't know. The process by which the task was being accomplished did not add up, things are much clearer, thanks to the help of some very helpful and concerned board members.
    Thanks.

    Robert



     
  11. Kds

    Kds F1 World Champ

    Joe G, Daniel and others are right on the money.........you are grinding FNA over 10 hours labor at best, for some coverage on an 8 year old car that cost 6 figures.

    Just do it.
     
  12. Ferrari32

    Ferrari32 Karting

    Jan 29, 2007
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    Sucks that it happened but you need to get it done no matter what. You'll be smiling a few weeks after you paid for it and wind up forgetting about the whole thing anyway.

    The sooner you get it done the sooner you will forget about it!
     
  13. E60 M5

    E60 M5 Moderator
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    I will try one more time to convey the work is being done, next Tuesday. Once again, its not about doing the work it was about what others experienced with the similar, problem,ie what did they pay, so on.

    I can't understand how anyone would not want to understand a particular situation to its fullest or would prefer to turn a blind eye and do whatever. Thats not me. I have worked long and hard for this car and I take NOTHING for granted, period.

    Once again, thanks to Ray for his helpful post with the recall bulletin.

    By the way Tino at FNA explained to me that it was a weaker metal in the earlier cam-variator from the original part maker that is requiring the replacement.

    Robert
     
  14. Joe G.

    Joe G. Formula 3
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    reeeeeeeeelaaaaaaaaaxxxxxx
     
  15. swilliams

    swilliams Formula 3

    Jun 14, 2006
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    I think most of your problems relate to Lake forest.

    I had to get mine done. I heard on this site that Lake Forest was top notch. I called them about my recall variators getting done.. They did not want to do it even if I paid for the Timing belt service. They said FNA only paid for 1.5 and it took more time then that. They wanted me to pay 2500 for belt service(belts only) Plus 3 more hours$125/hr for changing variators. I said no thanks and went to Fer. of ATL. 2000 labor and $1200 parts from ricambi, I replaced everything(both tensioners, bearings, and all belts) in there because I wanted to rev to 8500rpms with a free mind.

    Get the service done, but go to Continental or somewhere else.
     
  16. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
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    #41 360trev, Jun 22, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    In mainland Europe the dealers replaced many engines that failed FREE OF CHARGE due to this problem. FNA should have just bit the bullet when the known problem happened and issued a recall on all cars to fix this problem before the engines failed. It is a known technical weak spot and in effect they forced owners to pay during their routine servicing with a main dealer. Its frankly appauling.

    I feel even more sorry for people who had to pay for a full engine rebuilt for a problem that was being caused by what in essense is a technical design flaw. Ferrari European dealers forced Ferrari Italy to pay for quite a large number of replacement engines, not even rebuilts but brand new engines! See attached picture of an invoice for a NEW unit. This car had covered 32,601 km's on before its variators failed resulting in engine destruction, ofcourse the warranty honoured it, the car that was less than 1 year old (at the time)! This gives you an idea of how much it costs to replace the engine with a new one, from the dealer Ferrari warranty coughed up $42,348 in this one case!

    The (in my opinion) rather weak FNA defence is that not all cars suffered because some owners never really rev the engines high up the rev range (!) thus do not see the issue. The problem becomes much worse on the track, it was first corrected on challenge cars who came across this problem very early on and broke quite a few engines in the process.
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  17. SFchallenge

    SFchallenge F1 World Champ

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    Gzzzz this is one painful horror & one main reason why I didn't want to buy an early 360 I chanced upon as my local dealer wasn't very forthcoming when I questioned them on this update campaign.

    I suppose not many people know about this issue until they visit here. So, do you guys know which production year 360s have this issue resolved?
     
  18. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
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    It got corrected from chassis no. ZFFYU51A820125418 onwards. This was some time in year 2002.
     
  19. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
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    Personally I think there was enough evidence at the time for a class action suit against FNA but hey I am not American! I am British and we do not tend to sue very often.

    I think if FNA was ever going to get sued on this issue it would have been done in 2002. In 2007 its probably WAY to late now and they have effectively gambled and got away with it. Naughty, really, not the kind of treatment I expect when paying over $200k for a vehicle. The fact it was a known problem, that it destroyed a large number of engines, (particularly so in cars used on the track or revved highly) and that they replaced the weak part in 2002 with the said Service Bulletin all proves that this was a design flaw from the start.

    FNA simply bauked at the fact that it was 10hrs+ labour for every car sold and decided to suck it and see. It paid off for them but left a very bitter after taste in so call 'customer service' and the trust relationship. Not impressive.

    Just bite the bullet and pay the $2400 instead of looking at a $40k+ bill for a new engine or $20k for a rebuild!
     
  20. SFchallenge

    SFchallenge F1 World Champ

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    Thanks on the info. Looks like quite a large no of cars are affected.

    Robert, I just read your first post. Yeah like the rest of the guys said, pay the US$2.5K & get over it then you can have thousands of miles of happy carefree driving which is worth more than that money. You'd probably waste that kind of money over one expensive dinner with some wine ;)
     
  21. synchro

    synchro F1 Veteran

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    +1
    Getting one response from the dealer and a different one from FNA would hurt.

    Let me see if I understand this correctly.
    You were a loyal customer and after you had trusted the dealer to perform all of the expected maintenance then FNA states that they didn't do everything and must re-perform the work to address what the dealer missed/mis-diagnosed.

    If this is true then this event is truly a tragic reflection on Lake Forest's service department.
     
  22. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    The folks involved are no longer here so I'll chime in to respond to cig 1....

    4i2fly, I met at Mario's Winery in Sonoma....it was his car that went way south on the variators, dunno the details.....it ruined his car...

    He sued...and with Rifledriver's help....won IIRC...
     
  23. THE DOBIE

    THE DOBIE Karting

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    I would love to come to your's for dinner
     
  24. cig1

    cig1 F1 Rookie

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    Thanks

    G
     
  25. jvmax

    jvmax Formula Junior
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    As long as you have the record of it being done in the past, or in my case, when Ferrari Of Scottsdale did the 30k service on my 360 before I bought it, they also did the variator campaign and provided me with all the documentation. That's why it is best to buy from a good F dealer.

    OBTW, campaign was done at 26k miles in Nov. 2006 on my 1999 360, now that's a stand-up dealership
     

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