Chassis 1C/10S Updated Information

Around that time David did buy a lot of Spares including engines but he didn't put one of them into his 412P. A spare 350 Can Am engine went into 0900 and a spare P4 engine went into 0846. The races he did with his 412P didn't require 3 liter engines.

It's possible there were scrapped chassis sitting around in various places in 1968 but this car had passed into the US through Customs which would require a chassis number. It was also road registered which would require a chassis number. As far as I know DM believes that number was 031S.

 

"If the car were indeed 031S wouldn't it have a stamping (anywhere) showing same? No grind marks, evidence of overstamp, or alteration of any kind can be seen on the framerail. A simple/clean 10S is seen on the longitudinal framerail and a simple "1" is seen on the front crossmember."

Neither "1" nor "10S" are Ferrari chassis number nor can "10S" be a Ferrari chassis number as "10" is an even number and "xxS" are all odd numbers. If these stamps are original the car built on this chassis wasn't made by Ferrari and was likely built by one of the manufactures that Stu Spoke of.

"Also, by the time the chassis of 031S was to have been manufactured (~1949) wouldn't the chassis have physically been of a different configuration?"

Until this chassis is totally stripped and forensically examined there is no way to know what it's configuration is or isn't or if there are other stampings that have been ground off.

"Why is DM so convinced that this chassis is of 031S when there is no evidence (none that this writer is aware of at least) that would lead one to believe that this was the case? If such evidence indeed exists, it would indeed be a significant advancement in this mystery. Thanks in advance."

Why don't you call Him and ask him? He wound up with the chassis and gear box of 031S and as I understand it believes that the chassis that is part of your Dad's car is 031S's chassis. DM is a serious Ferrari Historian and IMO would have a serious basis for believing that this chassis is 031S.

 

The problem I have with the 031 connection is that this rolling chassis was completed and sent to Stablimente Farina June 9, 1949 and sold new to its first owner Lucianno Mosti in December 1949 This was over two years after the two 44klg bent X tube chassis were delivered to Ferrari. It seems unlikely that 031 was built with all or part of the missing 44klg chassis. just one man's opinion tongascrew

 

The barchetta entry referred to by Jim says:

65 - engine & gearboy only owned by Richard F. Merritt, Bethesda, MD, USA
72 - ............, GA, USA
7. - abandoned in the streets of NYC, NY, USA
7./mid - Edmond Williman, Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
.. 212 engine installed, Motto body from 002C mounted
93/dec - engine, transmission, driveshaft, differential offered by Dick Merritt for $39,000

Now who provided the info given from 72 onwards? If Merritt knew the car was abandoned in the streets one presumes he would have gone & got it to go with his engine & box. If it was the person who finally rescued it, or a friend of his, then surely his name would appear. It all sounds very hearsay, and is obviously attractive as a way of explaining the disappearance of one car and the appearance of another, but seems very stange.

I agree John could most likely profit from a talk to Dick Merritt and see what he has to say, and of course that the real way forward is a full analysis of the chassis itself

By the way, where is the 031 engine/box now?

 

166-Inter-031S-Seielstad-PrancingHorse-164.pdf

 

Many thanks for reminding us of this interesting article about the 031S - 1C/10S connection story.

I have just come across an interesting thing which may explain where the story originated (if it - the story -turns out to be incorrect).

Michael Sheehan sold the 250MM #0250MM, and on his website recounts the history. I have copied the relevant section:


"1965, May, advertised for sale in British magazine “Motor Sport” by Ian Sutherland of Angus, England with an asking price of 1,000 English pounds.

1966, purchased by BOAC air steward named Barry Ward. Ward then arranged for BOAC to air freight the car to New York, NY. Ward then drove the car from New York to Atlanta, Georgia.

1966, sold to George Sterner, York, PA.

1966, November, offered for sale by Mr. Sterner.

Later purchased by Richie Gorman’s Competition Motors, Brooklyn, NY.

1971, sold by Mr. Gorman to Walter Lewis Hagstrom, NYC, NY.

1970s, mid, purchased by Ed Williman, NYC, NY.

1989, sold through Mr. Eric Harrison of Paris, France to Hartmut Ibing, Dusseldorf, Germany."


It can be seen that Water Hagstrom actually sold this 250MM to Ed Williman in the mid 70s, yet he is also said to have sold 031S to Ed in mid 70s in the 031S story. Could it be that he mixed up the 2 cars when recounting to whom he sold 031S, and that this is the origin of the 'Ed Williman's car is 031S' story? The PH article says "Walter Hagstrom bought the dilapidated 031 S at a police impound auction in the early 1970s and later sold the chassis to Ed WillimanOf course he could have sold both cars to Ed.....

We remember that Ed recalls he bought the car from a John Delameter.

Can anyone track Walter Hagstrom down if he's still around?

The other part of the story recounted in PH that is very odd is that it contains the view that Ed sold 031S again "......031 S was seen in Pittsburg and was later sold (by Ed - WT) on to Howard or Howarth Gilmore" (Howard Gilmore was a well known SCCA racer at this time - WT).
Wherever did that come from?
Of course Ed could have bought it back again....and kept it all hushed up....
Rather unlikely I think.

Will (WT)

Can someone who knows David Sielstad ask him where he got his info for the article and then trace that back.

Again, this is is really just like doing a bit of crossword puzzling compared to what might be found when the car is finally examined.

 

Thanks Michael. This article clears up a LOT. IMHO if this chassis was totally stripped and forensically examined I agree with David that this is exactly what it would turn out to be:
031S. In light of the article it's not surprising that Dick and others feel this has never been a mystery.

 

Look at the wheels.

 

What about them? They were fitted to several of these early cars.

What do you think of the Hagstrom 'coincidence'?

 

Michael, thanks much. good article. tongascrew

 

Jim. I edited my earlier post and put some quotes from the PH article in to make it clearer (I hope)
Will

 

I don't think the other car you referenced (0250MM) had them but the car in David's article did.

I think these are separate cars and Ed still owns one of them.

 

We are talking at cross purposes here.

The point is that
1. Walter Hagstrom is KNOWN to have sold #0250MM to Ed Williman in the mid 70s.
2. Walter Hagstrom is SAID to have sold 031S to Ed Williman in the mid 70s in the "031S is the Williman car" story, and Williman emphatically denies this.

Until now there has been no reasonable explanation of the origin of the belief that the Williman car is 031S in spite of it not being stamped as such (when clearly it must have been so stamped when the dilapidated car bought by Hagstrom was identified as 031S - otherwise how was it identified?).

I suggest that the FACT Hagstrom sold 0025MM to Williman around the time of his selling 031S (let's say to another party) could easily have become confused when he was asked to whom he sold 031S. To spell it out: He remembered selling Williman a car around that that time but thought it was 031S rather than 0250MM.

This seems like a reasonable explanation of the origin of a story always denied by Ed Williman. Of course it's not proof.

The point about the wheels is that although 031S had disc wheels, this is not a unique feature of 031S and it is known that several other early Ferraris (including the "first") had them.

 

Will

The stamps or lack thereof don't impress me. As I've said unless the chassis is completely stripped we don't know if there are other stamps or if other stamps have been ground off.

Once again "1" and "10S" AREN'T Ferrari chassis numbers.

More telling to me is DM. Talk to him. Read Michael's posts very carefully. IMHO this chassis is and has always been 031S and David is correct. That's what I think. Until it's stripped and forensically examined and the metal proves that impossible that what I'll continue to think.

Cheers

 

Not that it matters what I think, but I like that conclusion as well after this latest batch of posts and after skimming (will read it all soon) the article linked via PDF.

>8^)
ER

 

Actually I'm not discussing the question of what I think the car is, and agree that the metal needs to be thoroughly inspected as it surely will be one day (barring end of the world scenarios etc.)

I was responding to the interesting PH article about 031S, and then sharing the discovery of a possible explanation for the dichotomy we have here between Ed's account and the 031S possibility.

 

Are you able to PM me contact details for DM & David?
Thanks
Will

 

OK - here's something from Michael posted on 12.12.09 in the 001S thread. Quite interesting I think:

"Well, that means that the frame of 10S is fully identical with that of the LWB Spyder Corsas. I don't know whether one or more of the later 166 MM or 166 Inter had the same layout, as these cars are not really "my baby". But afaik the MM's had underslung frames with a bolted-in center transverse, and the road cars the fishmouth-welded X with transverse, some archer over the rear, others underslung. Possibly some of the SC frames had been surplus, as Colombo decided to use a different layout for the SWB cars."

 

Based on unconfirmed wheelbase measurment. Keep in mind that wheelbase measurments mean nothing if suspention isn't original to chassis and or set up incorrectly.

For the last time unless totally stripped and measured correctly this chassis could be anything including non Ferrari.

Stan was always chasing the "First Ferrari". At one time he sold 002 (c) as the first. He also invented 03C. This isn't 01C, 02C or 002 (c) .

 

John
Can you trace Walter Hagstrom to see what he has to say about his part in 031S history?
Will

 

John,

I want to encourage you to stay vigilant in the pursuit of whatever the truth may be. Hopefully when you are with the car this spring you can provide very detailed documentation and that such documentation will be from multiple viewing angles. As many here have said the metal is be the real source of evidence.

Is there a chance you can remove the body to more fully expose the frame? How about removing paint and whatever so the bare metal will be exposed?

You may want to consider inviting some of the recognized experts to join you. Another suggestion would be to do daily posting since the revealing of one item may lead to questions to see something else.

Jeff

 

Looking again at the PH article I wonder what/who was the source of the "031 S was later sold on to Howard or Howarth Gilmore". Can any of the 031 S proponents explain? Does any one know of Gilmore?

 

That we don't know. In this sense it would help to see what other early Inters were built upon, especially those bodied by St. Farina around that time (021S, 033S, 037S). So far it seems that at least some early Inters were built upon a chassis like that of "10S", so why not 031S? It would also be of interest when exactly did Ferrari drop out the data plate. Best wishes, Kare