Chassis 1C/10S Updated Information

This was posted on a thread on the Alfa BB in regard to Cisitalia by John DEBoer, but I think it gives an indication what what kind of problems we are dealing with...duplication of numbers...numbers not matching docuements...when 2 cars have the same chassis number, how do we know if the one we have is actaully the one that appeared at a particular race, etc....

More study will reveal additional numbers I am quite sure, but 29 single chassis number duplications have been identified so far and a further four chassis numbers have been found to have been used three times. That's 37 EXTRA chassis numbers that are not unique. I am certain that we will find many more with additional study. This overview does not include at least one duplication found in the D46 range of numbers. It also seems clear that more than one D46 were sold on certificates of origin that originated with Cisitalia 202 cars. It seems that some of those cars had modifed chassis numbers as a result.

 

Stu is correct. For example 002C was the thrid car and began as a 159.

 

So it might have been 1C then 2C then 002C!?!

 

Jim:

These are Godfrey's determinations and not mine:

Prior to this thread, I have never seen anything with the numbers 1C (or 2C) on them.

Based on what I have seen, I would call your car a 159, even though Godfrey calls it a 166.

I'm not sure if 01C/010I should be called a 159 or 166, as I haven't seen enough details. Based on what I have seen, some details appear to be different than your car. I don't have enough photos or data to attempt to determine if it is earlier or later than your car.

What I am trying to determine in regard to the car this thread is based upon is if enough of the car being called 1C/10S is actually Tipo 125. Certainly the brakes appear to be....

 

There is so much evidence of this car being the first ever Ferrari, maybe I am a wishfull-thinker...

 

Napolis,

Do you have plans to visit the car and make a thorough investigation of your own? I would think that your thorough knowledge of your 002C would be useful in identifying some of the earliest car nuances.

Jeff

 

I hope to. It's important to keep in mind what this is all about...

http://www.youtube.com/user/napolisjmg

 

Lovely!

I could easily watch several more hours of footage like that. More links?

 

To recap:

Brakes are 125, confirmed?
Body was original to 002C, confirmed?
Steering box markings yet unknown

Surely there must have been modifications to the original design of the 125 chassis during the transition to 159 and 166, and if this were to be an original 125 chassis, there should be telltales.

I am also still interested in markings on the wheels. Yes, it is likely that they were changed somewhere during the cars life, but not certain. Borrani may have an answer to that with the right question asked.

Whatever the outcome may be, this is rather intriqueing!

As an aside, is 002C the car that used to belong to Dries van der Lof in the Netherlands?

 

It has a body that was once fitted to 002C built by Motto in the 50ies but not 002C's original body. The body tells us nothing about what the car is or isn't.

002C was in the Netherlands for a bit.

http://www.pirro.com/english/All.Ferraris/Detail/002C.166.Spyder.Corsa.htm

The brakes are different than 002C's brakes, likely earlier Typo 125, and they are stamped 1C but once again that tells us nothing about the chassis which is the most important question.

On Ferrari's the legal identity of the car is established by it's chassis.

 

How rare are the 125 type brakes? Are these definitely earlier than the brakes on 002C, or just different and assumed earlier?

Do some or all 166's have the 125 number cast into their brakes for instance?

 

Napolis,

Since the brakes on this car with the 125 markings seem to be the first item being focused on and your statement that 002C's brakes are a later design iteration: Are you certain that 002C's brakes are the original installation and were not updated in the car's early history?

Further, is it correct that your brakes do not have "125" in the casting nor any other casting mark such as "159" or "166"?

My opinion is that to get to the bottom of 1C/10S there will need to be an inventory on a virtual part-by-part basis and, as you have stated, a thorough understanding/investigation of the frame.

Jeff

 

As Typo 125 came before Typo 159/166 I assume they're earlier but once again brakes are not part of the chassis and in and of themselves mean nothing regarding the chassis.

Look at the link in my prior post re: the history of 002C. Note the names and players. Think about Nathan's post about the stampings on 01C/010I. All of these guys were searching for the first Ferrari. These may be 125 brakes and they may be stamped 1C but they could have been stamped by one of these guys in the sixties. These guys collected parts as well as cars.

The History and originality of 004C and 002C are pretty straight and clear. 004C has it's original body/engine/gearbox/ chassis/etc. 002C has it's original engine/chassis/gearbox/etc. and a body patterned off of 004C's body by Stan in the 60ies. At one time 002C's engine was 159 and may have been 125, one of the two original 125 engines.

The only thing that matters is what chassis is this. Frankly the first step in determining the answer to that riddle is to completely strip the car down, and inspect/measure the chassis, the welds, modifications and stampings.

For many years it has been thought that the first Ferrari was stamped 01C, the second 02C, and the Third 002C. ("002C's" Bill of sale lists it as "002" and it's Typo as "I" and it's chassis stamp is clearly "002" and less clearly "I" which some over the years have read as "C". Keep in mind that Ferrari has stated that their records show that the first car was stamped 01C as evidenced by their issuing the CLassiche Chassis Plate 01C/010I.

 

002C's brakes are original as proven by period photographs.

 

Just some observations:

1st chassis rolled out of the factory had a generic horn-button or centre cap on the steering wheel boss, no prancing horse. A pic in Ferrari Tipo 166 (Motorbuch Verlag) shows the Cortese car (thought to be the same chassis?) interior, but the photo is not clear enough to show the cap detail.

1st chassis rolled out had the Borrani disc-wheels, but the centre nut is different. The first specs listed for the 125 also list disc wheels (steel centre and alloy rim) with rudge-type mountings.

Antoine Prunet's listing as published in Auto Italiana in 1947 lists brake-drums with a diameter of 300mm. What does this car have?
Track is listed as 1255mm front, 1200mm rear. Wheelbase 2420mm, but in the text of another book, IIRC, it states that the Cortese car had a shorter wheelbase.

What is the rear axle ratio of this car? Listed in the same source is 4.9:1
It would stand to reason that the 125 rear would be shorter than thew later 159/166 rear ends.

 

Hi JAW
This is a really interesting puzzle. Another idea - although it might not be much of one - Do you think the dashboard is original or a later creation? A photo of the dashboard if thought to be original might give some clue as we have a photo of the original 125 dashboard. Just an off the wall thought.
Nathan

 

Hi

Pretty sure dash is part of 002C's Motto body thus built in the 50ies.

Cheers

 

That would be my guess as well - but worth asking the question?
Nathan

 

The photo looks like it's part of/shaped to fit the Motto body.

 

OH YES!!! that is a great video , thanks for sharing!!



doug

 

Stewart Warner (SW logo) would DEFINATELY be a later period....I installed some like that in my 1967 Pontiac Firebird convertible......I recognize the type font....

This is a great thread and you are doing absolutely the right thing consulting all these experts..Napolis has the research networking skills worldwide..

Nice to meet you, and I'll go away now...

It is a a shame Ferrari themselves have lost so much of the Records but I have worked for companies of a similar age and have seen how the attitude goes......"We have computers now, let's just throw away all these dogeared old drawings done in pencil/rapidograph.."...and out to the dumpster it goes....

 

002C wheel base 2410 mm
front track 1285 mm
rear track 1220 mm
brake diameter 304 mm
Shoe width 1.5 inches
Remember track is from center of tire so can vary a touch due to tires.