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Chassis 1C/10S Updated Information

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by jawsalfa, Jun 28, 2008.

  1. tongascrew

    tongascrew F1 Rookie

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  2. 246tasman

    246tasman Formula 3

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    I think the 44kg chassis thing is a red herring.

    It is reported above (M Muller #703) that 007S has this arrangement, and so do at least some of the SCs.
     
  3. Michael Muller

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    With all respect - this is nonsense! All LWB Spyder Corsas had this frame which is well proven by photos. And as I said earlier, major components had been built and numbered up to #022I but never assembled because they decided to substitute the dual-purpose Corsa Spyder by a real sports car (166 MM) and a real monoposto (166 F2). So 2 or 3 44 kgs bended tubes frames may have been surplus by mid 1948, which figure potentially can be increased by another 2 in case the SWB chassis layout was only decided after the old version frames had been ordered or even delivered.
     
  4. Napolis

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    +1 except that I feel that "nonsense!" is too polite.

    The questions remain.

    Why was this car sold by Desormeau as "002C" which at the time time Stan had described as "The First Ferrari"?

    Did Ed believe it was when he bought it?

    Why was this car described as "01C" "The First Ferrari" in Autoweek and the Press release?

    What chassis was used in this car's racing logbook?
     
  5. 246tasman

    246tasman Formula 3

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    #730 246tasman, Jan 14, 2010
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2010
    [QUOTE=Napolis;139271438
    ....Why was this car sold by Desormeau as "002C" which at the time time Stan had described as "The First Ferrari"?....

    This is strange if correct. I'm surprised no-one has found the 'for sale' advert yet, which would settle this point.
    The misinformation would surely originate from the body which was from 002C.
    Also if true it would suggest that Desormeau wasn't the pesron who stamped '1C' on the chassis & maybe brakes, or the '1', because he would only have done that to pass the car off as 1C or 1, the 'First Ferrari' and is unlikely to have forgotten this and changed it to 002C.

    ...."Why was this car described as "01C" "The First Ferrari" in Autoweek and the Press release?"....

    ED & John have said they don't know, but I can imagine a simple error to go from 1C to 01C with nothing too significant to be read into it.

    ...."What chassis was used in this car's racing logbook?"....

    I believe Ed has said on several occasions the logbook was 1C right from the start.

    Again, the usual refrain: The chassis needs stripping and checking!

    I'm particularly interested to see a check on the ALL the stamping fonts/sizes and positions in comparison to other early cars (up to say 045S - can you post photos of the stampings 166Tom?) as it's clear that if there was a fraud it wasn't committed by a master faker, and the chances of them replicating the stamps exactly is very slim. Also of course if this chassis is 031S there is bound to be evidence of the removal of the original stamping.
    If the stamps are correct then this becomes very interesting...

    PLEASE Ed! Strip it! You must be dying to know too.......
     
  6. Napolis

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    #731 Napolis, Jan 14, 2010
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2010
    Will

    When Stan published that "The First Ferrari" was "002C" this car was sold as "002C" which was not true.

    Stan had also published that the "The First Ferrari" was "1C" which was not true and this car is stamped "1C".

    Year's later David S. published an article with compelling research that showed this car was likely 031S. Michael has added more evidence by stating that it's current chassis has a configuration that could have been in 031S. The photo shows the same wheels that were on 031S. DM who wound up with 031S's engine and gearbox for a while believes it came out of this chassis. 007S wound up with 031S's body which came off of this chassis.

    Years later the Press release and Autoweek article described this car as "01C" "The First Ferrari" which was not true.

    Still unanswered.

    When Ed bought this car with paperwork describing it as "002C" did he believe this to be true?

    Why was "1C" used in it's racing logbook by Ed rather than "002C"?

    Cheers
     
  7. tongascrew

    tongascrew F1 Rookie

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    Interesting. So what you are saying is that if more than one 44klg chassis was delivered one was used to build 002C and the others were consided surplus meaning they were never used? Ferrari then may have been better off financially than we thought to have discarded these other 44klg chassis. It is my understanding that only the 44klg chassis were delivered by GILCO in 1947. True or false. If this is true what chassis were used to build 001[C] and possibly the 01C/10S1947/48 rebuild considering the drawing in the Motor and Autocar of this car showing a 44klg type design chassis I don't mean to be critical but much of what you say is presented as"may" have happened. And you may be right. But let's open the door a little wider. I would really like your comments on The Motor and Autocar drawings of 01C/10S. just one man's opinion tongascrew
     
  8. Napolis

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    George

    There is no chassis "001[C]

    There is no chassis "01C/10S"

    There is no "Motor and Autocar drawings of 01C/10S"

    How do you know what this chassis does or doesn't weigh?

    You don't.
     
  9. Michael Muller

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    As long as you are refusing to READ my postings I will stop this useless conversation!
     
  10. Napolis

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    +1

    This is getting silly.
     
  11. BIGHORN

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    I seems all of this is bascially opinions based on hazy facts, so no need for a lack of civility.
     
  12. Michael Muller

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    Sorry, but how to comment this...??
     
  13. yale

    yale Formula Junior

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    Well I think there is some frustration from some people that have spent a good part of their lives interested in these early Ferrari's about others who have retired from their day jobs and have a lot of extra time to conjecture online thus adding a layer of useless misinformation that could been seen as having some meaning years from now. So while there is opinion it is at least "learned opinion" and not just endless chatter based on reading one thread on the internet.

    In other words this is a very interesting thread that mostl of us should just sit on the sidelines and read. (Me included).
     
  14. Napolis

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    You can't.

    Best
     
  15. 166tom

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    #740 166tom, Jan 14, 2010
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  16. Randy Forbes

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  17. Michael Muller

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    #742 Michael Muller, Jan 15, 2010
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    This photo has been posted in the very early beginning of this topic. If I remember correctly Ed Willimann found it in the door pocket of the Motto body. Clearly something homemade. As Nowak didn't know where his Motto body will go to, the origin of this funny item must have been Desormeau.
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  18. 246tasman

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    #743 246tasman, Jan 15, 2010
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  19. 246tasman

    246tasman Formula 3

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    Makes sense. Why would Desormeau then sell it as 002 though?

    A lot of things don't add up quite right here....
     
  20. treventotto

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  21. Napolis

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    #746 Napolis, Jan 15, 2010
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2010
    "funny item" is a bit too Polite.

    Also note that the body # reads "002" not "002C". In the literature, for some reason, 002 was referred to as "002C". The person who produced this fraudulent chassis plate (01C) had likely seen 002's real chassis stamp.

    Is this where Autoweek and the Press release came up with "01C"???
     
  22. Marcel Massini

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    #747 Marcel Massini, Jan 15, 2010
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    Please note that up until chassis number 039 S the chassis numbers stamped on the frame were stamped with THREE digits (like 035, 037, 039, etc.) only, and from 0041 S onwards they became four digits (were stamped with TWO leading zeros, 0041, 0043, etc.). Almost all Ferrari books and other publications have this wrong and often state 3 digits only up until chassis number 099.
    The factory build sheets for these early cars are correct and list four digits from 0041 S on.
    Here is a photo showing the chassis and the engine number of 0041 S (engine stamped 0041/M). Also a better quality photo showing the data plate of 0045 S. Plus a photo showing the engine number in 0045 S. I believe this to be absolutely correct, genuine and authentic. I also include a photo showing the THREE digit chassis number of 039 S.

    COPYRIGHT MARCEL MASSINI
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  23. 166tom

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    Thanks Marcel,
    Tom
     
  24. tongascrew

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    Come on Jim. Give me a break here. I am at this time researching 250 SWB files and trying to get in on all this info on 1C/10S at the same time. I am working from memory here so if I get a letter wrong a polite correction would be appreciated. And I do have these drawings of the Folland 01C/010I. Did I get the s/n corect??? If you would like me to send you copies let me know. just one man's humble opinion. tongascrew
     
  25. Napolis

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    George

    Read Michael's Posts very carefully. There is no question that this chassis could be 031S. None.

    In addition there is no evidence what so ever as to what this chassis weighs.

    Your posts, as Michael has pointed out, are totally ignoring the facts he has posted.
    Facts backed by research and photos that he has posted.

    It is possible and very probable that this chassis is 031S, has always been 031S and was never anything but 031S. I am not alone in thinking this and the Autoweek description and the Press Release description are not supported by any credible evidence that I am aware of.

    Please point out any evidence that this chassis is "01C" "The First Ferrari" as the "Chassis
    Plate" that Michael posted clearly claims it is.

    Not only does that "Chassis Plate" clearly refer to "002"'s body which is attached to it, it's chassis # is clearly stamped "01C".

    NOT "1", Not "1C", Not "10S" stamps of which are stamped on this chassis and parts attached to it.
     

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