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Chassis 1C/10S Updated Information

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by jawsalfa, Jun 28, 2008.

  1. 246tasman

    246tasman Formula 3

    Jun 21, 2007
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    This is great information to know (& see), thank you very much.

    Can you say anything about the chassis plate being stamped 166MM? Does it occur on any other 'S' cars?
     
  2. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    MOST super early 166 S had NO chassis plate (badge or tag) at all. 0045 S is one of the earliest cars with such a "standard" tag. Cars such as 166 Mille Miglias (Barchetta or Berlinetta Touring) had other tags as is well known.

    Marcel Massini
     
  3. piloti

    piloti Formula 3
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    If it was in the door pocket of the Motto body then it must be totally unrelated to his chassis - seeing as he bought the Motto body seperately to fit on his chassis.
    Nathan
     
  4. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    There are differing accounts as to who bought the Motto body and attached it to this chassis.

    I believe John and Ed said it was Desormeau not Ed.

    We all know 002 chassis was not originally "01C" so the question remains:

    Who made this chassis plate and why did they stamp the chassis number as "01C"?

    It's very unlikely Motto did that as he clearly could see that the chassis he originally mounted this body to was 002.

    I think it was Desormeau and he was trying to turn this chassis into something it wasn't.

    Why this number "01C" turned up years later in the Autoweek Article and The Press release
    when there was no credible evidence that it was remains a mystery.
     
  5. piloti

    piloti Formula 3
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    OK. Marcel, in Cavallino 96 seems to indicate that it was fitted after Ed bought, unless I misunderstand his meaning.
    Maybe John can clarify (although its probably somewhere in this thread).
    Another thought (which again I may have missed) Does anyone have a copy of the build sheets for this car?
    Nathan
     
  6. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    "First, the motto coachwork from 002 was sold by Nowak to Henry Desormeau of Latham, NY. My father bought the 1/10S chassis and coachwork from Henry circa winter 1970...

    regarding this chassis, I, and my wife, visited with Desormeau's daughter (Carol) last summer at their home in Lake George, NY. While records pertaining to the chassis/coachwork could not be located (Henry died in 2000), she confirmed to me that she remembers the car well. She remembers the "CAR" well, not just the coachwork. It seems unlikely to this writer that the 002 motto coachwork would have been purchased by Desormeau without a chassis on which it would be affixed. The point here is that Nowak DID NOT sell the Motto body to my dad as the article suggests. Second, the chassis that the motto body was affixed to (at the time of purchase) is the same 1/10S chassis as seen today...

    Anyone who spoke with my father at the show, or since, will know that he (nor I) have ever represented the chassis to be that of 01C. The "10S" was discovered by B. Noon at the show, and the "1" located on the front crossmember (in the same location as 002) was found months later (with witness) and posted. The "1C" was discovered while repairing the left idler-arm bushing circa 1971/72."


    John
     
  7. epdowd

    epdowd Formula Junior
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    Thanks Marcel, this is good to know. Do the even numbers follow the same pattern?
     
  8. jawsalfa

    jawsalfa Karting

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    I agree with many of the points raised; however, I must remind everyone of the era in which this car was acquired. The mindset present when this car was purchased by my dad almost 40 years ago was very different than that of car collectors today. These cars had such little perceived value at the time that "correct" or verifiable evidence of what you were actually buying was not even really a critical element of the purchase. To frame it differently to perhaps help clarify this point...Does anyone here remember the date of purchase, the model, or serial number of the first cell phone you bought? If you bought the phone from a private seller (e-bay or other), the seller may or may not even know the manufacture date or serial # of the phone. This information is just not important (at least to this writer) because it is not expected that one will even be using that cell phone one year from now. Model, color, features, price, etc... are far more important to the buying decision. Does it matter if you are buying the first or second series Motorola? Whether or not that cell phone will become valuable in 40 years time is not even remotely part of the equation. To further put it into perspective, the actual perceived "value" and $ cost of today's cell phones are analogous to the era/time in which my father bought this car (1970). I appreciate and apologize to the many here view it as sacrilege to compare the purchase of a rare Ferrari to that of a cell phone; however, I think the spirit in which I raise this argument is clear. My dad didn't know (or really care at the time) what he was buying and he doesn't remember Desormeau making any claims as to what the car was or wasn't purported to be.
    Plain and simply, my dad loves neat, old, things (cars inclusive). Anyone who has been to his house can attest to this statement. Buying this car was no exception. It satisfied all of HIS required purchase criteria--neat and old (Note: "good investment" is pretty far down the list). He aggressively raced this car and it was well known in the NY area VSCCA. My father found the 1C stamping on the chassis when he repaired the idler-arm and this stamping was the only one that he knew of until the P.Springs show. Nothing more complicated than that. The purchase of this car was not even a big deal to my father (probably contributing to the fact that recollection of the details of its purchase is hazy). To be candid, I don't even think that my father knew (at least I didn't) of the David S. article until presented in the thread here. Same is the case for the Autoweek press release. The source of the plate photographed and posted stating "01C" is a mystery to us as well.
    I agree with the analysis presented that this chassis could be that of 031S. It is also possible that it is not. As a scientist, I must admit that the testimony of DM, the article by DS, the likeness of the wheels, the timing of the disappearance of the chassis and the fact that the 1C/10S chassis design is similar to, at least, one other 166 Inter (007s) leads me to the conclusion that this could very possibly be 031S. The goal of this thread, after all, was to properly identify the chassis of this Ferrari.
    In light of all that has been brought forward regarding the physical design of this chassis (SC layout), if this is indeed 031S, I humbly submit that it remains distinctly possible that Ferrari used/re-used an earlier SC chassis to build up this car. We will look closely for evidence of a 031S stamping or any tampering at the site of interest and share findings here. Best regards to all, John
     
  9. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Veteran
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    John raises what could be an interesting point, especially in light of the steering box and the brakes, could 031 be a factory recycle of an earlier car? Is there any reason to definitely believe that this could not be the case?

    Could 031 have been subjected to some "bitsa" assembly of other old Ferrari parts laying around in its reincarnation that culminated with the Motto body installation?

    Even if 031 is correct for the chassis aren't these brakes accurate for earlier cars? I know have been prior remarks in this thread that the brakes might not be Ferrari at all but "125" would seem to make a good case that there is the likelihood that they are in fact Ferrari.

    Jeff
     
  10. piloti

    piloti Formula 3
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    Jim
    Thanks for the clarification.
    Nathan
     
  11. Michael Muller

    Michael Muller Formula Junior

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    Although not finally proven, let's consider Hagstrom sold the chassis he had to Desormeau, which would mean that the Willimann car is "the car formerly known as 031S".

    In the 50's and 60's 031S was road registered, thus the car MUST have had an identity, without reasonable doubt that of 031S.

    The Willimann car has no frame stamping relating to 031S, and it is doubtful that such stamping will appear after stripping. And even if so, the stamping will be NOT at the location it used to be, because that area as I understand has been inspected already.

    Adding this together it is obvious that 031S MUST have been equipped with a chassis plate which was then the only basis for the title and the registration(s). It seems that such plate was sold with the body to which it was fixed. Only the actual owner of 007S may be able to share some light on this.


    031S left the factory by mid 1949. Considering the frame layout we have to look for a Spyder Corsa which disappeared before that time. Negative - all of them had been alive and actively raced then.
     
  12. Michael Muller

    Michael Muller Formula Junior

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    Come on Jim, "fraudulent" is something else...!
    Is it fraudulent if some youngsters fit their old Toyota with a sporty-looking fibreglass body, paint it red, and stick 25-30 Ferrari badges of different size on it?
     
  13. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Jeff

    After 031S's engine and gearbox had been removed from this chassis, after 031S's body had been removed from this chassis, at the time the time Desormeau was attaching 002's Motto body to this chassis and making up his little chassis plate that proclaimed that this chassis was "01C" there were piles of early Ferrari parts floating around. AB,CB, and Stan all had them. In the early 70ies I worked on my Lola in a Friends shop that he shared with Stan for a while. As Mavis sang I saw these early Ferrari Parts: "With my own eyes". Stan was constantly buying and selling early Ferrari Parts.

    As Michael's last post points out:

    "031S left the factory by mid 1949. Considering the frame layout we have to look for a Spyder Corsa which disappeared before that time. Negative - all of them had been alive and actively raced then."

    I truly believe this "mystery" has been solved.
     
  14. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    :)
     
  15. prova66

    prova66 Rookie

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    well...i see there is plenty to talk about with this one...some points i'd like to hit...though i have not perused the whole thread, so i hope i'm not covering something already covered...but...1) the image showing the plate from 01C is interesting...though clearly not a factory item...the stamps do mimic those accompanying the gilco number found on the front cross member of chassis 012I...the stamps i'm mentioning are the overlapping V's...2) the brakes were an issue early on in this thread...the IF in the casting...to me...screams out ISOTTA FRASCINI...and if you remember, post-war, the company did attempt to revive itself with the Monterosa of which a handful or so were made...?...as Micheal suggests also, the 125 in the casting could be coincidence...i've not been able to track down anyone that owns one...3) perhaps the chassis has also a stamped number on the right rear corner, as 012I does...014I appears to have something...and most pre-war alfa...and maserati race cars have...pre-war practice being carried over...which would make sense...the same people built the cars after the war too...4) as to the chassis number not being in the usual place...i have seen parts on chassis that were obviously taken from the scrap-bin and used to make brackets with numbers stamped on them...ect...post-war italy was very poor, and recycling was a standard practice...making it hard to believe a whole chassis would be scraped at such an early period after the war...it would be nice to see some better shots of this car...things like...the front cross member taken from a plan view...engine mounts...radiatore...steering box...cockpit with interior removed...


    fun stuff guys...


    curtis
     
  16. Michael Muller

    Michael Muller Formula Junior

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    Hi Curtis, hope you're well. And 012I too...
     
  17. Michael Muller

    Michael Muller Formula Junior

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    Not really.
    We have 3 different frame stampings - 1 , 1C, 10S

    Summary:
    The "1" is in the correct position for a very early car.
    The "10S" is in the nearly correct position for a somewhat later car.
    The "1C" is at an unusual location and most probably stamped at a (much?) later date.
    No "031S" in the correct place for a 1949 car (abt. 1 ft in front of "10S").

    There MUST be a certain logic for this...
     
  18. 246tasman

    246tasman Formula 3

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    John/Ed - have you checked the "correct place for the 031S" stamp very very thoroughly for signs of grinding/alteration? A quick clean just there and photos would be good to see, and not too difficult.

    Jim says: "I truly believe this "mystery" has been solved." The word 'believe' qualifies this nicely, as the mystery has not been fully resolved. Balance of probability I agree, but no way 100% (yet).
     
  19. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    #769 Marcel Massini, Jan 16, 2010
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2010
    Disagree. I have inspected several EARLY Ferraris where the authorities used the ENGINE number as basis for the title and NOT the chassis number (simply because it was very hard to find). I just very recently inspected 0047 S which was titled using the TOURING BODY number (four digits) instead of the chassis (or possibly the engine) number. That was in the State of Nebraska in 1957. Such things happened in the 1950s and even in the 1960s regularly. Not only in the USA but also in European countries.

    Marcel Massini
     
  20. Michael Muller

    Michael Muller Formula Junior

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    Okay, exceptions confirm the rule.
    But is it possible that Ferrari would sell a car with its serial neither stamped to the chassis nor to a fixed manufacturer's plate?

    And for 031S - she lost her original engine already around 1961.
     
  21. thecarreaper

    thecarreaper F1 World Champ
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    i have greatly enjoyed reading this thread.

    why did the complete car known as 031S become a separated pile of parts in the first place?

    it has been mentioned it was owned and road registered in the uSA for a period of time before all of this.

    so why was it chopped up and its parts used in the first place, as opposed to existing a a complete car?

    thank you.
     
  22. kare

    kare F1 Rookie
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    Engine and tranny were already gone. Wiggins may have been interested to buy the body for his otherwise complete 007/S. Then we would have a rolling frame left...
     
  23. kare

    kare F1 Rookie
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    Exceptions only confirm rules in communication. Facts don't confirm or deny other facts.

    I am not sure whether 031/S was built with a chassis plate, or if that had been dropped out of production already at this time. Last odd numbered car I have pics showing an early style tipo plate is 015/S. I have no idea how soon it was deleted after that.

    I, however, am pretty sure that frames were stamped at all times. A frame stamping may still be there somewhere - or it may have been removed. Sometimes stampings can be very hard to find.

    Best wishes, Kare
     
  24. thecarreaper

    thecarreaper F1 World Champ
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    thank you.
     
  25. prova66

    prova66 Rookie

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    #775 prova66, Jan 27, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    ...saw this nebulous vista the other morn...sad sight indeed...hopefully the world has become more enlightened than our forefathers in the 70's when this chassis was restored...but...all we can do is hope...i'm not seeing it really...anon...

    ...thanks Micheal...012I is coming along...finishing up the loose ends hopefully soon...



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