Chinetti Sues Ferrari

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by Napolis, Aug 2, 2012.

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  1. Edward 96GTS

    Edward 96GTS F1 Rookie

    Nov 1, 2003
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    The disagreements have been brewing for many years...
    No surprise.
    Ed
     
  2. SonomaRik

    SonomaRik F1 Veteran
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    Dec 15, 2006
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    haveing a bit of trouble making it all out, but I see motorsports mag...which issue. The online site doesn't give much.
     
  3. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Recent I assume I was sent it by Coco's friend.
     
  4. RVL Saratoga

    RVL Saratoga Formula 3

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    I wonder if Coco still owns the rights to the NART badge, cavallino included. I would think that an authentic NART car would be more valuable, regardless of what Classiche has to say about it.

    Sort of like SCG P4/5CM: it's not a Ferrari, it's better.
     
  5. BartonWorkman

    BartonWorkman F1 Veteran
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    Looks like an ad for Motorsport Magazine. What
    a picture of the three Group C cars sitting on a track
    because, yes, taking a picture of racing cars sitting
    still is such a challenge.

    Link to article?

    BHW
     
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  7. Peloton25

    Peloton25 F1 Veteran

    Jan 24, 2004
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    Erik
    I can read it all as presented and would be willing to transcribe it here but I don't want to upset anyone, especially Mr Nye.

    >8^)
    ER
     
  8. tx246

    tx246 F1 Veteran
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    It amazes me the fact that Ferrari would let this fight become a legal one vs. having a "happy hour" conversation.

    I think the end result is going to be the Ferrari Classiche program being even more looked at as a profit center and not a Marque preservation attempt than we currently have. I think it is odd that Ferrari has taken this approach rather than modeled itslef after what other Marques have done for vintage vehicles. Once a car is "Blessed", Ferrari isn't going to be able to get the fee again. Parts support is where the money would be if they wanted it that way.

    Now that there WILL BE legal evidence to support favoritism for special cars admitted in court, Ferrari is going to have lots more murkieness in the water than not. The number of doors a suit like this opens is pretty surprising, especially with some cars that have been made "OFFICIAL".
     
  9. iwanna860monza

    iwanna860monza Karting

    Sep 19, 2004
    237
    Excellent post,

    I will be fascinated to see how all of this plays out, IMo Ferrari needs to be careful who they mess with. Ferrari SPA is worth roughly US$2 billion, some of their collectors are worth what 10 times that. If it gets into a pissing fight Ferrari will not come out smelling very sweetly. As you say there are many examples of cars that Ferrari have blessed or not and eventually if enough collectors get mad enough.................. Class action ?
     
  10. kare

    kare F1 Rookie
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    Nov 11, 2003
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    Why not? Maybe Ferraris will need to be certified every three years in the future? Some people go to church every week...
     
  11. f308jack

    f308jack F1 Rookie

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    Exactly. Certification is but assessing a car at a certain moment in time. What happens with the car after that moment has passed is anyone's guess.
     
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  13. GTE

    GTE F1 Veteran

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    I don't understand what Chinetti is saying or what he wants to achieve. Ferrari doesn't control how a Classiche certificate is valued in the market of classic Ferrari's. A car isn't authentic because Ferrari says so. It is also BS that the 365P can't be sold without Ferrari's blessing. Of course it can, but perhaps not for the price Chinetti wants. But that isn't Ferrari's problem, is it?
     
  14. f308jack

    f308jack F1 Rookie

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    It'd be interesting to read a little more than what is made public via the press. There must be a lot more to it.

    Sooner or later something like this was bound to happen, SpA are dealing with some pretty powerful people, and the consistency of rulings within the Classiche program have been the subject of discussion almost since the inception of it.

    How do you go about proving that the variations in rulings by Classiche are intentional?

    And what on earth has the badge to do with it all?
     
  15. PAUL BABER

    PAUL BABER Formula 3

    Nov 1, 2006
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    I know of two 275 GTBs in the UK that were originaly 3 carb but have been converted to 6. For Classiche they 'borrowed' a 3 carb set up but directly afterwards the 6 carbs were reinstalled........... Small point but it does ask the question whether Classiche is meaningless. I don't think I would pay extra for a car that had been certified but more and more buyers today ask and expect it. Its rather like a potential 275 GTB buyer asking if the car has a torque tube........They usually haven't a clue what it is but have been told this is so important........Not knocking it but think its overrated and too expensive.
     
  16. GTE

    GTE F1 Veteran

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    IMHO buyers are wrong to accept as a rule that any Ferrari that has a Classiche certificate is therefor competely original, just for this reason alone. So I really don't understand that so much value is put into such a certificate. Caveat emptor still remains, with or without certificate.

    There will always be debate about the originallity (and thus the value) of certain Ferrari's. Ferrari were wrong if they ever assumed they could end those debate's by 'formally' awknowlediging (or not) the status of vintage Ferrari's. The debate will then easily shift towards the question whether or not Classiche were correct in certifying a certain Ferrari, or not. And then to think they are all just cars.

    Either way, as far as I can tell, Chinetti has no case. If he wants to sell 365P without a certicafe, he can. Or he could go out and get one (I believe there is no doubt this car is eligable for certifcation).
     
  17. bigodino

    bigodino F1 World Champ
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    I've heard similar stories from people involved with Classiche and worse. Much worse.
     
  18. f308jack

    f308jack F1 Rookie

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    Like any marque-certification program, also Classiche isn't, nor can it be made, immune to these practices. It's a little silly that you'd have to go through physically changing tha carbs for certification, only to change it back immediately after. I'd rather accept a remark in the report that the carbs are non-original to the car.

    That, however, is about the merits of Classiche, not the merits of this law-suit.

    The way |I see it, it is at Chinetti's discretion to use the program or not, nobody is holding a gun to his head. The 3-seater can't be the focal point either. Is his point that Classiche is manipulating the market?
     
  19. GIOTTO

    GIOTTO Formula 3
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    Is the Replica California based on 250GT 2+2 #4309 that is (or was) displayed in the Galleria certified? The answer is yes. They are real experts!
     
  20. bigodino

    bigodino F1 World Champ
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    So how many remarks in the report before the certificate looses its validity in your eyes?
     
  21. Daytonafan

    Daytonafan F1 Rookie
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    I guess your inferring that these buyers are new to the classic Ferrari market?
     
  22. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    This is a case of "Italian law" ... personally I'd rather book myself into a mental home than go through a legal case like this. I think Ferrari believe they can do anything they like since they are Ferrari, even in the case of restorations I have read (ie. if they change something then it is immediately correct because of course they made the car originally and can do as they please).

    I do though think Classiche is challenging ... in my position a good reason why I would think twice about purchasing a significant old Ferrari (even if I had the money).
    Pete
     
  23. GTE

    GTE F1 Veteran

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    That seems to be the case. So why put any value in a Classiche certifcate to begin with?

    I would put more value in two thumbs up from Marcel Massini or any other not factory affiliated historian/expert.
     
  24. f308jack

    f308jack F1 Rookie

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    Not for me to say.

    You're right in asking though, because the answer defines which car should, and which one should not be certified.

    If there is no rule-book that is adhered to stringently and consequently, certification is without value in the first place.

    Chinetti is putting a value on certification, and looking to prove that it is not without flaws, if I read correctly. The outcome could have a far-reaching effect on how Classiche certifies -and has certified- cars.
     
  25. GTE

    GTE F1 Veteran

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    But it is not for a judge to decide how Ferrari (or anyone) should judge and examine cars. Classiche is just a service, provided by the factory. No one is forced to make use of that service.
     

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