Jim, hence the aversion to attach value to such an award. One group may have a different opinion than another group or individual. Letting that be, to me, shows a level of honesty and balance. George
Yet, you often see FCA PLatinums used in advertising sales, as a value added feature. It's a reflection on the knowledge of the FCA Judges....
On a perhaps unrelated note, is it true that the Chinetti dealership's early (50s, 60s) records are unavailable to owners? If so, why?
It is a swamp out there when you dive into the old car marketplace. There are traps just waiting for even the knowledgeable buyer. One buyer still thinks he purchased an original engine model; he did not. Another bought an alloy body convertible; it wasn't. Yet another owner knows the motor is not an original 'born with' example but claims that it is when offering the car for sale. One car has a vin that matches a rare model but the whole car has been 're-created' based on just the paperwork of that particular vin. One car with a color change has long forgotten crash damage inflicted upon it less than a year after it was first registered. Unless you can really understand and know the history of an 'old car' you are just looking for trouble when you jump blindly into the market. Gone but not Forgotten> Classiche offers a measure of confidence to the less knowledgeable buyer and a new source of revenue from 'product' that has long since gone out the door... CH
Jim, Firstly thank you for starting this very relevant and important post. While I agree that there may be experts are more knowledgable than the Classiche Department, the reality of the marketplace today is placing importance on Classiche (not that I agree with it completely). As Vintage Ferrari prices move ever higher, new buyers are coming in who know little about the market and rely on the Classiche Certificates. Today I will guess that about 30% of the Vintage Ferrari market is from buyers who are buying the cars as investments rather than anything else. So much like buyers get a certificate for buying an important Columbian Emerald worth USD 2-3 million, people are who are spending $3+m on a vintage Ferrari expect the same. I certainly will hesitate to buy a car which is not Classiche Certified although I am aware that the department is not flawless. For example Ferrari will give a Classiche Certificate even if the engine is not the original one but a correct replacement from the time 'I think it is called stamped block' which I believe is not right either. Although I think the Classiche department is needed and will add security for vintage Ferrari buyers I also think people like Massini, Mr Nye and other experts are absolutely critical in providing buyers and auction houses the correct information and history on all Ferrari's being offered today. Its a complicated topic and I look forward to hearing more comments from experienced collectors, expert restoration shops.
One can enjoy and desire a great painting from the masters without being an artist or even taken a class on art history. I figure someone can enjoy the pleasure of a great car in the garage without being a race driver or even a gearhead. Like you said some of the most knowledgeable folks on the planet are here on F-Chat to share, and that can provide more value than those folks in the nice building in Italy.
It's still important to know if the car you're buying is real. There are IMO totaly fake cars that have classiche certificates. 0818 comes to mind. I and others (LC) feel the car that Ferrari has classiched as 0818 is a fake. It's chassis and body were fabricated in the UK and the real 0818 (which is a very storied car) is with EH in Austria not in V's estate in Italy. I realise that unlike Coco EH lost in an Italian court but that does not change my opininon that the V 0818 is a fake and the EH car contains most of 0818's original chassis. EH bought the chassis from David Piper. http://www.barchetta.cc/english/All.Ferraris/Detail/0818.275P.htm This is the key: 66/apr/28 - fat. acc. in practice for TT Oulton Park Piper acquired the remains and I believe sold the engine and other parts to the guys that "restored" the V 0818 but as the original chassis was really damaged sold the damaged original chassis to EH who also "restored" 0818. Either way anyone who buys V's 0818 based on the classiche certificate without talking to EH, inspecting both cars, talking to Hoffer is IMO making a big mistake.
As I understood it, the precedent set if he wins this suit means that future sale price of cars (that he may or may not own) will be affected, because I guess he is trying to prove that a Classiche certificate is essential for a seller to get as much profit as they can out of the sale of a unique Ferrari. The potential profit of these certificate-less sales might offset the money he's paying to sue Ferrari.. I hope this made sense, I'm not in the best writing mood today...
A Ferrari can be awarded and FCA Silver, Gold, or Platinum with a non-original engine. The engine number should be checked as part of the judging process - even though it often is not checked in the more modern cars, as mentioned above. If the engine number does not match the chassis number there is a deduction, but the car is not disqualified from receiving an award. If the engine is of the wrong type there is a substantial deduction, and it would be extremely tough to be awarded a Platinum. I do not know if there is a deduction for a "Classiche" stamp on a replacement block. I do know that there is no 'bonus' nor grace given to cars with Classiche certification. I think it would be extraordinarily challenging for a car with a non-original engine, Classiche certification or not, to receive a Major Award at a National FCA event. Personally, I would rather own a multiple FCA-Platinum award/Major Award car than a Classiche car that has not been vetted at FCA concours. I believe the depth of knowledge in the FCA regarding the originality and authenticity of the cars, especially Enzo-era cars, would be difficult to top. Forza, David
See #0818 threads here: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=59220&highlight=ferrari+%220818%22 http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=130049&highlight=egon+hofer http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=314744&highlight=ferrari+0818
Feel free to transcribe it - I'm not about to get upset... It's interesting to read all your reactions here. Funny old world, isn't it? DCN
Yes I am.......but I am told that its not just the classic market but the later cars are being inspected for Classiche.....Whats the point of doing this on a 2 year old car ????
I just did a USPTO search, and Chinetti doesn't own any US Federal Trademarks at all. (Oddly, FCA has trademarked "THE FCA Luigi Chinetti Award".)
It is and they don't make em like Coco or you for that matter anymore. Interesting article you wrote. Best!
In 2009 Classiche created a Type 2 Certificate which was designed, I thought, to cover these situations. If this is true why is all this discussion necessary.It is interesting and informative but is the Type 2 Classification so detrementsl to the market value of the car? Some informed discussion of Type 2 would be interesting here. tongascrew
On Kamfer's 375 America it had a Classiche replacement engine. The engine stamping reflected that it was a new replacement. A 1 point mandatory deduction. This did not preclude it receicing a Platinum and Best of Show at the 2009 FCA Annual Meet and then going on to win its class at Pebble with a score of 99 points. Jeff
This is really a very relevant point when dealing with a race car. If during the course of a racing season the factory upgraded parts from the original day it was first made the world generally considers this OK; factory performed. But what happens if the privateer made the same changes during the season so they could remain competitive? If the privateer sent his car for rebuild to the factory and updates were incorporated there does it make any difference to the same updates being done by the privateer's own team shops? With the Penske/Kirk White 512 should one replace the tub because Penske created a different tub that was better? The Penske tub is part of the overall historical significance of the car. Would one de-Traco the engine too? Lets look at a street car example. The 250 spyder for Peter Collins that got the disc brakes. A historically significant piece of the Ferrari story. But the change was not done by the factory and has since been change back by the current (could be relatively recent) owner. Jeff
While my eye's are wide open that there are things that Ferrari SpA as well as the local level Dealerships may not know, how is it that FCA judges are seemingly all knowing? It appears to me that both sides have knowlege that the other may not know about. While Ferrari SpA has access to data ( Dealerships as well ) , they do not always know what happens with their product once it leaves their care. Again, I am new and am asking so that I may have a better understanding. I am not asking to be argumentitive. S
LC without question. But the statements being made seem to be more broad... not just on the cars that NART raced. The statements in this tread appear to be stating that Show Judges are better and more knowledgeable on all cars, vintage, modern, as well as cars with race heritage. Now, Ferrari knows how the cars left their care, and when Ferrari is performing a Classiche, that is what they are confirming, right? Or, are they checking that the modifcations are to "spec " ? I am asking, becuase the guidelines we are given to inspect and confirm, are very detailed. we are not asked to make sure the vehicle is showroom new, only that the correct parts are in their correct locations and period correct bits-n-pieces are present. So, I can see how a car could be Classiche , but still not be the perfect candidate for someones collection. I may be jumping around within this thread too much. i'll go use the search feature and try and read up more on this topic over the weekend... S
.c Neither? How much was actually saved? You can't store a few decades of records in a box under the bed. There was over the years lots of 'paperwork' floating around in the marketplace that didn't seem to have much dollar value unless there was an interesting signature on a cancelled cheque perhaps. One person had a large accumulation of factory build sheets and shopped them around later for 25k. No takers at all. However Jacques Swaters was one person who knew the value of all that paper. He made frequent visits to the Ferrari archive and accumulated much knowledge. CH
I have a question for you. At what point is the Classiche process taken from a local dealer and assigned to the factory? Is the threshold something that is decided at the individual dealership or is there a policy based upon age and type of car? One of the Classiche consultants is/has been Jess Pourret. He certainly personally has knowledge of these cars that is at least on par with about anyone else. I do not know who else specifically is on the consultant list when it comes to the more difficult cars to deal with although he did clearly indicate that there were others that he respected. I can talk about the FCA judges as used at the Annual Meet. They are all part of the International Advisory Committee for the Preservation of the Ferrari Automobile (IAC/PFA). The judging standards are theirs and go back to Ed Guilberson. The judges themselves must be accepted as sufficiently knowledgeable. The judges and the judging process is also used for the Ferrari class at Pebble Beach and Cavallino. The IAC/PFA has had some level of discussions with the Ferrari restoration group because of different standards for authenticity; IAC/PFA is more rigorous. I was in a briefing that included this topic in 2009 but cannot say to what extent this may have been resolved in the intervening years. Jeff
Please can someone answer this..........Is the concept of Classiche to certify ORIGINALITY or CORRECTNESS ? I ask as I am told that should you present a car with the wrong block Ferrari will say to you that for $xxxxxxx we can build you a new one and then your car can be certified. Surely this negates the whole trust of Classiche and all its supposed to stand for. From reading all the many interesting posts I am now thoroughly convinced that Classiche is a money making con.........
