Chuck Queener

It was 39 or so years ago after all!

For some reason this car has had many inaccuracies about it's history
talked about and published. This history above is correct of course,
and then it went to my Dad for $8,400 in 1970, and then to Fred, and then to
the current owner.

The one inaccuracy that is still out there is that the frame is different
on this car than the other GTO's, and is that of a Super America (SA).
My Dad, who restored the car, says it was the same as other
GTO's he'd seen. So, not 3765SA......Any thoughts??

Is this the 250MM that was first owned by Bill Devin? If so my Dad had that car too.


You can see more of our pictures of the GTO and others we owned by clicking below:

http://www.cliffreuter.com/ferrari.htm

-cr

 

The one inaccuracy that is still out there is that the frame is different
on this car than the other GTO's, and is that of a Super America (SA).
My Dad, who restored the car, says it was the same as other
GTO's he'd seen. So, not 3765SA......Any thoughts??

http://www.cliffreuter.com/ferrari.htm


Cliff,

According to Michael Lynch's research in Cavallino, 3765 bears a unique chassis- designated Tipo 538/566.

Some have contended "it's not one of the GTO's because it didn't have a 3 liter engine" or words to that effect. I say no to that- the factory fitted 3765 with 3 liter motor 0796 TR for its second owner in 1963 or 1964 (which, as you well know, it carries to this day).
3765 was raced in Italy in period as a homologated GTO with that engine. It allegedly won the Sicilian hillclimb championship in 1965 (something I know nothing about but have heard in conjunction with this car's history.

I think all the confusion lies (and always has) with the world's two most expensive 400 Superamericas; 1. 3673 SA, a standard 400 SA bodied as a 250 GT (SWB) and only recently rebodied as a GTO. and, 2. 4561 SA, a standard 400 SA bodied as a GTO for Ferrari board member Jean-Paul Cavallier (and, as such, in the position to order presumably anything he wanted from Mr. Ferrari- including a Superamerica with a GTO body).

So, to sum up, including 4713 GT (the only GTO to carry the LMB style body), 37 GTO's. All present and accounted for. And in my mind, 3765 has always been one of the most desirable ones.

SA or LM... that's above my paygrade. But, GTO through and through.

Best,
Dave

 

After the Lynch article Fred Leydorf went to the Ferrari factory and got the build sheets for 3765. They
told him and the papers show that this is a STANDARD GTO frame. I'll try to publish these documents
so as to put this to rest once and for all. Although this might not be enough for some, so some time in
the future I'll go to Jaeger's and photo the frame. Not really a big deal in the large scale just something
I'd like to have historically correct......

 

Wow. That's excellent. I for one would love to see the documents if they do get published. If you make the trip to do the photography, make sure you get to take the car for a drive

Best,
Dave

 

The frame on 3765 is slightly different from a regular 250 GTO, and maybe this is why the factory gave it a new chassis designation.

The front motor mounts on the 4 liter engine block are located forward of those on the 3 liter motor. When the car was returned to the factory to have the 3 liter motor from 0796 installed, they had to weld new front motor mounts to the chassis. They left the original 4 liter mounts in place, so that motor could be reinstalled if so desired. Notice that the 3 liter mounts are not quite as nice as the original 4 liter mounts.
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

The other difference to the frame, is a notch in the front cross member to allow clearance for the front belt pulley which is attached to the crank shaft on the 4 Lit engine

 

Very interesting. The same thing happened to 0846's P3 chassis when Ferrari replaced it's P3 Motor with a P4 motor in December 1967.

See pages 65-76: http://www.glickenhaus.com/jim/project.pdf

 

Thanks for bring that (pdf) up again; I had gone through it not long after I joined this forum.

Have you compiled a similar report on 002C (cockpit shown on pg 97 in the above referenced pdf)? I would love to read more about that car, if you have something publicly available.

Thanks!

 

There are a number of 002C threads which should come up on search. We've just finished restoring 002C's engine and gearbox in Modena and are about to embark on restoring the rest. We may ship her back to Modena for this and display her at the Factory at some point. Ferrari has been very helpful in this endeavour.

 

Okay, yes, I've been through most of them already, but I am always interested in going through them again. You never know when you'll come across something you've previously missed.

I'm sure the factory would be quite pleased to have 002C on display.

I think what fascinates me the most about your car, is to imagine the atmosphere (inside the workshops) when it was being built; those working on its construction had to driven by excitement, and couldn't have had any idea where that path was to lead. If only she could talk (though I expect she does, to those lucky to be close enough to listen).

Back to you, Chuck...

 

Thanks. I was paraphrasing H M's ad from memory.

 

Chuck,

What about your summer with Bud Keeney's 250 LM? You warned me about driving Epstien's LM that never, ever, under any circumstances to back out if it gets loose. Something about even Phil Hill at his finest couldn't catch an LM when it comes around. Actually had to remember that one time while driving 5909 as the stone wall was getting closer.

Jeff

 

Chuck- Good to see you on the Forum. Great story on the 250 LM. Still enjoying the painting you did for me of my old Daytona. Very nice work. Marcel told me in a Daytona thread it went back to Europe and had the top chopped off. Oh, well.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

The only time I got pulled over in 5909 was after going through the tunnel interchange in Pasadena of 210 to 134. I was idling along under the speed limit (splitting headache from the noise). Got "fix it tickets" and an expired registration. I managed to hide that there was a registration sticker on the plate but I had already found out it was for Bob's Morris Minor woody wagon; that was a major item not just a moving infraction.

With the fuel leak you too could have suffered the fate of the other LM up in the Hollywood Hills; good Samaritan lights a flare but the gas gets to the flare and crispies an otherwise repairable LM. You probably know the story from first hand accounts; I only read about it.

Jeff

 

Does anyone know the month in 1971 this ad appeared in?


Greg

 

There is an ad in the January 1971 R&T Market Place for a 1963 GTO ($9000). For sale by H.M. Kelly in Oak Grove Ca.

 

Yeah, I have that one, the price is actually $9900. He also offers an LM for $12900 and the pair for $22000 Firm. I don't think this is the one they're talking about but thanks anyway for the help, still captures the essence of the early 70s market.

I own the following R&T's from 71: Jan, Feb, Apr, May, Oct and Dec. This means Manney's GTO is offered in one of the six not mentioned. Again, if anyone knows the month, let me know please!

Greg

 

As I remember the Manny ad appeared earlier than 71 and the price was closer to 6K.

 

I could not find any Manney GTO ad in R&T Market Place for any issue in 1971 or 1970.

 

I haven't pulled out my 1971 R&T issues recently, so I speak from somewhat clouded memory, but I do recall seeing one 1971 R&T classified ad for a 1963 GTO (with photo attached), which, after much detailed copy, asked the princely sum of $8,500.00. Since a Cadillac Fleetwood retailed for about $10,000.00 in '71, that puts the price, and the esteem in which old Ferrari race cars were held, into clearer perspective. Fred

 

Fred, If you could find the month for THAT specific ad (the one with the picture, NOT the Manney car) I'll be forever in your debt.

Greg