Cirrus Pilots :/

There are hundreds of SR22 flights every day. SR22 is the most common GA aircraft flying. SR22 has an amazing safety record.

 

source?

 

https://flightaware.com/live/aircrafttype/

Watch it every hour as the day goes by. PC12 and SR22 are the most common GA aircraft flying day in day out. Hundreds of thousands of hours a year added to the fleet.

Also see this GAMA aircraft delivery report. Cirrus is selling loads of airplanes.
https://gama.aero/wp-content/uploads/memos/65097_GAMA2018ShipmentReportQ2.pdf

 

I think he meant about the safety record. Until recently the SR20 and SR22 had a bad safety record. Bad.

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2016/july/24/how-cirrus-reduced-accidents

 

Article states the "high" of fatal accidents was 2011 with 14. Again, you also have to compare flight hours of the fleet to tell the whole story. Comparing SR22's with millions of flight hours and hundreds of flights per day to a brand that has 2 flights per day is not an apples to oranges comparison. Planes don't crash sitting in the hangar or on the showroom floor.

 

If you do some research, the rate of accident (yes, based on flight hours of the whole fleet) for Cirrus aircraft was markedly higher than other GA aircraft for a long time. That number has come down considerably as of late for one reason or another. Personally, I think it's the training Cirrus is putting out that's been the difference.

 

I have to research what I just said and you're agreeing with?

 

*** Disclaimer: I'm not a Cirrus Hater ***

Not sure what is meant by "most common"

historical production: 44,000 C-172 vs 7,000 SR-2X.

FAA database query shows approx 20,000 C-172 variants currently registered in the USA vs 4,300 SR22/SR22T.

Not sure what is meant by "amazing safety record." Perhaps the last few years have been better than average (ref: charts in link below)

https://www.cirruspilots.org/copa/safety_programs/w/safety_pages/721.cirrus-accident-rates.aspx

watching Flightaware might give you a subjective feel for how many SR22s are in the ATC system, but gives you no information re: how many GA pilots are flying around talking to nobody at any given moment.

"Hundreds of thousand of hours a year added to the fleet" - I do not think this is accurate. Multiplying annual Cirrus production numbers by average hours flown per year I come up with less than 80,000 hrs of additional flying per year by new Cirri.

Again, I'm not a Cirrus Hater. Some of my friends have them. Fine airplanes, and the CAPS has its uses. I do think Cirrus likes to consider any use of CAPS as a "save" whereas traditional pilot skills might have resulted in a save as well, maybe even a "better" save.

Some years ago, I had the opportunity to dine with the President of Avemco Aviation Insurance. We discussed many aviation-related things, and he mentioned that with all the numbers-driven analysis they have used with respect to GA aircraft, there is one measure that really stands out in having a correlation to accident rate...Wing Loading.

 

The opportunity for a crash is "wheels up to wheels down". It doesn't matter if the flight is 15 minutes or 3 hours. Flightaware shows you what's flying. SR22 is at the top of the list. Indeed FA doesn't show every SR22 flying which means there are more flying than are shown on FA. Same for every airplane shown on FA. therefore it's still a great data point.

C172 is a trainer airplane. It has it's own statistics since it's used more for training as opposed to traveling. Do you really think an SR22 and a 172 are in the same league?

It doesn't matter if you think the chute should be used in this instance or that. When you have some sort of failure you can decide whether to pull the chute or not..... options. What matters is Cirrus has driven most piston manufacturers out of the business with their design. Now with the SF50 I expect the trend away from pistons to continue.

 

jason1st, what phases of flight have the most mishaps?

what percentage of Cirrus flights are represented in Flightaware? (Rhetorical Question because I don't know either).

do you think a higher percentage of Cirrus Aircraft show up in Flightaware vs some other types of GA aircraft? (I do because Cirrus pilots are probably more likely to file IFR flight plans).

What do you think about Avemco correlating Wing Loading to Loss?

Do you own or sell Cirrus?

 

I think all planes show up equally on FA with the except of 172's. Some folks like to block their tail numbers, some don't. At the end of the day, SR22, Pilatus, Phenom 300 etc. are always top of the list. The same planes are always the most common flying. Combine that info with the GAMA sales info and you see the picture. I know of know better way to determine "what's flying" and "what's not flying".

I used to own an SR22. It was my first airplane. I've owned Bonanza and a couple PC12NG's now.

As for Avemco..... Insurance companies are looking for way to not insure "owner operators".... which is why I became a Commercial Pilot. Insurance companies are in business to make money. I wouldn't say their opinion is 100% reflective of the market either.

 

Need to consider how/where FA gets their data.

https://flightaware.com/about/

At this time ADS-B is not required, and I suspect the majority of 172's do not yet have it (ADS-B Out) thus making them 'invisible' to FA unless they are on a flight plan within the system. IMO this would hold true for most any older airplane that is used primarily for VFR flying, including training.

 

Yep. Flightaware is an incomplete picture and one simply cannot claim it is a representative cross-section.

Exactly right. Thank you.

Other points I was going to make:

- Mishap rate is indeed based on flight hours (typically incidents per 100,000 hrs)
- no differentiation or normalization is typically made for the "type of flight hour" in these statistics
- the highest risk phases of flight are takeoff and landings
- so many of these "higher risk" training flights with multiple takeoff and landings that are likely VFR may not even appear on Flightaware and the associated flight hours may not be tracked appropriately
- SR22s are not usually used for PPL training, in fact much of their flight time is at cruise (a much lower risk phase of flight) and yet they have not had an "amazing safety record" as previously claimed (even Cirrus recognized this which is why they had a company training initiative)
- Insurance companies are in the business to make money and they do so by attracting customers while managing risk. Premiums are proportional to their risk perceived risk. At least one major Aviation Insurance company feels that Wing Loading is correlated to risk of loss. I'll leave it for others to research the Wing Loading of SR22 and other popular GA aircraft.


Pilots, yachtsmen, car enthusiasts, etc. can be susceptible to Confirmation Bias with respect to statistics relating to their prized machines. There was a time I'm pretty sure my 1968 Barracuda was the most amazing creation on planet Earth.

Regardless, I'll be keeping an eye out for the NTSB report on this incident, but I think I'll mozy over to the Brazilian GP section...I joined F-Chat to talk Cars, F1, and why Lewis Hamilton sucks (j/k).

 

Okay, one more quick post:

Instructor on board. Not just a fire but total loss of power. Ascertained unable to make it to runway. Deployed chute.

Good job and/or good job saying the right things to the investigators (which can be equally as important).

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?EventID=20181001X93726&AKey=1&RType=Prelim&IType=LA

On September 30, 2018, about 1121 central daylight time, a Cirrus SR22 airplane, N818GM, impacted terrain following a loss of engine power near Addison Airport (ADS), Dallas, Texas. The pilot and flight instructor were not injured, and the airplane was substantially damaged. The airplane was registered to and operated by the pilot under the provisions of Title 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91 as an instructional flight. Day visual meteorological conditions prevailed for the flight, which departed ADS about 1115 and was destined for Waco Regional Airport (ACT), Waco, Texas.
While on departure climb about 2,800 ft above mean sea level, the pilot and flight instructor noticed multiple avionics malfunctions and turned back toward ADS. During this turn, the engine lost total power and indications of a fire were noticed. After the flight instructor and pilot recognized the airplane was not within gliding distance of ADS or a suitable forced landing area, the pilot initiated the Cirrus Airframe Parachute System (CAPS). The airplane descended under parachute into a parking lot and the main spar was damaged. On-site examination revealed the right side of the engine cowling was burned through near the exhaust system. The airplane was retained for further examination.

 

I've said repeatedly in this thread that FA is not perfect. Which is why I also look at GAMA info.

That said, I wouldn't only buy an airplane that had a large following. If I were in the market for a new piston plane.... SR22.

 

Sorry Jason you are wrong here. FA only registers airplanes that are in IFR flight plans or contacted Tracon ....a lot of 172s in the “flyover country” do neither. 172s still fly more hours than Cirrus’s do because they outnumber them 5-1 and as you say a lot are used for training. Cirrus record is nothing like as good as the 172. Great airplane though, I have owned 3!

 

The 172 factor has already been addressed in this thread. I'm not talking about 172's. Nobody is flying 172's "cross coutry". Lot's of folksd fly SR22's cross country. It's an apples and oranges comparison.

 

It could be argued that relating the safety record to the airframe manufacturer is flawed. In a significant % of cases the powerplant is at fault, and not related to the interface with the airframe.

 

Then why do different brands have such different safety stats even though they use the same power plant?

 

The Cirrus haters will enjoy this:



Actually, this guy is pretty hilarious!

 

I’ve never flown a Cirrus. And I’ve never owned a Cirrus. What I do know about Cirrus(s?) are 2 things.

1) They are popular airplanes.
2) Cirrus pilots are a strange breed of cat.




I just dealt with a guy coming from a Cirrus that was interested in buying in my A36. Let’s just say...right when you think you’ve seen it all, something or someone comes along....

 

I love this guy

 

https://www.flyingmag.com/cirrus-michelin-2019-special-edition-sr22

Each buyer who takes delivery of the $1.124 million airplane, dubbed the Arrivée model (French for “arrive”), will also receive complementary dining for four at a Michelin Starred restaurant and a luxury experience to go with it including VIP transportation to dinner and hotel accommodations in the city where the restaurant is located.

 

There was a time when 'arrivee' had a not so glamorous connotation......