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Classiche Annual Inspection

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by WCH, Jun 21, 2017.

  1. BMWairhead

    BMWairhead Formula Junior

    Sep 11, 2009
    863
    Portland, OR
    Full Name:
    Ted
    I believe there have been cases...

    (I think) There are events that previously had no requirement, but now DO require Classiche certification to participate.

    Also, I believe the 'car port find' alloy Daytona from Japan was sold with the condition of Classiche certification. It wasn't clear to me who was financially responsible in that case.

    While it's not a gun to the head, it is a condition for participating in events and sales/purchases that previously had no limitations.
     
    bernardo66 likes this.
  2. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Rookie

    May 14, 2017
    2,523

    It may be a condition for some events that Ferrari is staging, which is their right, and frankly makes a lot of sense. However, it isn’t a condition at many of the most prestigious concours events there are, such as the Cavallino Classic and the FNA Annual. I’m also all but certain that it is nkt a requirement at Pebble Beach or Amelia Island. As for it being a requirement for purchases, I suppose that’s a free condition between a buyer and a seller. One can’t blame Ferrari for that.
     
  3. AClark

    AClark Karting
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    Andrew Clark
    I believe that Ferrari is hosting another event at Pebble Beach this year, where the cars they are allowing in their “section” are all supposed to be open air Classiche certified examples.

    I may be wrong

    But it doesn’t bother me that Ferrari hosts events for Classiche cars only... it seems like a value adder to me

    A
     
  4. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Rookie

    May 14, 2017
    2,523
    You are correct. It will be part of their hospitality area, “Casa Ferrari”. As you said, the theme this year is open air models throughout their history and all the displayed cars will be Classiche certified. Last year they did something very similar but the theme was iconic models throughout their 70 year history. I’m fairly certain the display this year will be available for public viewing as it was last year (not just for the guests in Casa Ferrari).
     
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  5. BMWairhead

    BMWairhead Formula Junior

    Sep 11, 2009
    863
    Portland, OR
    Full Name:
    Ted
    It is their right, but it excludes participants who "don't step up."
     
  6. Bryanp

    Bryanp F1 Rookie

    Aug 13, 2002
    3,646
    Santa Fe, NM
    I would like to hear from the FCA that its contract w/ Ferrari SpA does not include the eventual requirement that cars shown at FCA events, including the National Meet, will have to be Classiche certified.
     
  7. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Rookie

    May 14, 2017
    2,523
    I presented my car at the Cavallino Classic (of which Classiche is a long time sponsor) and there was no requirement. It wasn't even asked. I am also presenting at the FCA National Meet and, again, the question never was asked.
     
  8. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Apr 28, 2003
    35,140
    Texas!
    I forget what Porsche charges, but it is chump change compared to Ferrari. Classiche is fundamentally flawed. The idea of returning your car to the condition it left the factory is beyond stupid. Ferraris to this day are kit cars. They are not ready for prime time. Take a F40 as an example. You'd be crazy to drive one with doing serious mods to the brakes and other items. At least Porsche is honest. All they say is this is how the car left the factory. How it is today is beyond our control.

    Ps To give another example. 308 cars have a problem with melting their fuse boxes. So, you're supposed to stay with faulty fuse boxes? To the same with F355 and F360 headers, and F550 hoses and on and on.
     
  9. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Rookie

    May 14, 2017
    2,523

    I understand your point, though I don’t agree with your assessment at all that Ferrari are kit cars. They are actually amazing engineering achievements. Certainly, F40 technology was incredible for its time, but there is no dispute that modern applications could improve it. I suppose that can be said about any generation of car. I guess, to me, that is besides the point. For many, preserving originality is a joy. I love maintaining my cars that way. But, if you wish to mod your car(s) than you have every right. That said it isn’t unreasonable that Classiche will not certify those cars. That isn’t what Classiche is. For those that want to modify their cars than Classiche isn’t an option for either party. For owners like myself, I like having the factory stamp of approval for originality. If any, I wish Classiche requirements were more rigid than they are.
     
  10. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Apr 28, 2003
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    Texas!
    If you don’t believe Ferraris are kit cars, you need to buy a few rounds for some folks who do prep at a dealership. You’ll hear some interesting stories.

    But to the originality issues, the headers on F355s break. If you use OEM to fix one, they break. The rational thing to do is to use non-OEM parts. To get through Classiche, you would have to pull the working headers and put on OEM headers that will break. That’s dumb. And just about every model line has a “header” quirk.

    But, it is even worse on the older cars because the Factory didn’t keep the records on what it made.

    I still think the Porsche approach is the correct one. Namely, when VIN so and so left the factory it had this, this, and this. With this info, you the owner can decide to undo any changes made to you car, but it is your choice.

    Sorry, this is a money grab by the factory.


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
     
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  11. DWR46

    DWR46 Formula 3
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    Jun 19, 2012
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    The Ferrari event at Pebble requires the cars to have been certified or to have applied for certification.
     
  12. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Rookie

    May 14, 2017
    2,523

    Correct, though cars must have been certified, not just applied. Also, not all cars that applied to show are accepted. They are looking for the finest open air Classiche certified examples throughout Ferrari’s history.
     
  13. Bryanp

    Bryanp F1 Rookie

    Aug 13, 2002
    3,646
    Santa Fe, NM
    That is not my question. I am well aware of the requirements for entry at Cavallino and the FCA National (having won best of show at both). The question has to do with FCA's agreement with Ferrari SpA executed several years ago; will Ferrari's quest for control over all things related to the marque eventually extend to excluding non-Classiche'd cars from the National Meet or other FCA-sponsored shows? Is that addressed in the Agreement, or does the Agreement allow Ferrari to impose it on the club?
     
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  14. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Rookie

    May 14, 2017
    2,523
    Well, forgive me. I would have no way of knowing what you do or don’t know. As for your question, simply approach the powers at be and ask them. It sure beats speculating. Regarding your Ferrari’s, you obviously have some amazing examples. You should consider getting them certified as well. What would the harm be? It’s just another component to their exceptional provenance.
     
  15. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Apr 28, 2003
    35,140
    Texas!
    You don't understand. Bryan would have to tell Spa how to certify the car. Ferrari didn't keep records back in the day. They just built em and sold em. Getting the car certified would add zero value to it.
     
    turbo-joe likes this.
  16. F1tommy

    F1tommy F1 Veteran
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    Dec 15, 2007
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    Tom Tanner
    Who does the factory Classiche certifications, all inhouse people or do they bring in outside experts?? I have seen them tearing cars apart at several dealers to send info back to the factory but who at the factory does it?
     
  17. DWR46

    DWR46 Formula 3
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    Jun 19, 2012
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    Rossocorsa; You are not correct, I will have a car for a client at the Ferrari event at Pebble. It is not certified, but has the certification applied for.
     
  18. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Rookie

    May 14, 2017
    2,523

    Well that's fantastic, then share the knowledge. How do we know that Classiche wouldn't welcome and appreciate his involvement? I;m guessing they would. I've noticed that most vintage Ferrari owners take a very negative tone against Ferrari, particularly Classiche. I think the overall community, can really benefit from the knowledge that vintage owners have. I'll never own a vintage car, but I love Ferrari and I'm a big fan of the older cars as much as the newer models. I think Classiche, for all its faults, is very serious about preservation and legacy. And yeah, so its a business for them as well. There;s no harm in that. Why shouldn't they make money from it? Its not like the great restorers (like David Carte, for example) do their amazing skill for free. Again, I'm sure Classiche would welcome the knowledge of Bryan and others like him throughout the certification process. Rather than look at Classiche as the enemy, maybe embark on the process with them. Anyhow, I' not trying to ruffle feathers. For some reason the whole topic gets some people very upset. Nobody is requiring anyone to certify their cars, and despite what many seem to claim, all the premier Ferrari and automotive events don't restrict anyone if their cars aren't certified (except Ferrari organized events).
     
  19. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Rookie

    May 14, 2017
    2,523

    Thanks for clarifying. They must have made some exceptions. This is the email I received from Classiche and the Ferrari Club.


    With the 2018 Pebble Beach Concours D’ Elegance event fast approaching, we’d like to extend the opportunity for you to join this year’s Casa Ferrari display as part of Ferrari Classiche showcase on August 25th and August 26th. We’ll celebrate the history and heritage of open-top driving with a lineup reserved for the truly elite. Our selection criteria reflect that exclusivity, as all entries must be Classiche-certified Spider, Targa, Cabriolet or Barchettamodels approved by the Ferrari Classiche and Pebble Beach Concours committees.

    Please complete and submit the attached forms, along with photos of vehicle(s), no later than June 30th. All entrants will receive a notification when final selections are made. Those individuals selected to showcase their vehicle(s) will receive an invitation for two to the weekend’s Casa Ferrari VIP hospitality events.

    We look forward to hearing from you as we prepare for another spectacular celebration at Pebble Beach Concours d’Elegance.

    Best regards,


    Ferrari Classiche
    Ferrari North America, Inc.
     
  20. Bryanp

    Bryanp F1 Rookie

    Aug 13, 2002
    3,646
    Santa Fe, NM
    I have asked this question publicly in the past, w/ no reply.

    I think my father's words have been "over my dead body" when it comes to taking our car thru Classiche. We have provided dozens of documents to various emissaries of Classiche over the past 25 years, explaining to them in excruciating detail the genesis and early lives of certain Ferrari 4-cylinder sports racers from the mid-1950s. We have had copies of the Assembly Data Sheets for many of these cars for many decades (back to my father's first Factory visit in 1961) and have developed spreadsheets, including which motors were in which cars at a given time, and individual car histories. Attribution for our contributions was promised and never delivered. We are not about to pay the Factory a princely sum to tell us what we already know, especially when we provided a substantial amount of that knowledge to the Factory.

    You also ask why vintage owners don’t “share” more. We wrote the first scholarly articles concentrating on Ferrari’s 4-cylinder sports racers in two issues of Cavallino back in 1991. Unfortunately, the notion of “sharing” isn’t a two-way street w/ the Factory – the vault doors at the Factory slammed shut around 1988. If you didn’t already have the ADS for your car, you were out of luck until Classiche came along and started charging thousands of dollars for copies of them. The notion of everyone just “sharing” their knowledge like one big happy Ferrari family is laughable, especially when the Factory has turned its history, much of it preserved by outsiders like the historians I have mentioned, into a profit center.

    I will also say, Rossacorsa1, that I recognize that you are relatively new to this Forum; some of the most respected Ferrari historians on this planet participate on this Forum and have long-standing, verifiable beefs w/ Classiche, its origin and the many mistakes it has made over the years. Your cavalier perjoratives such "Classiche-haters" are not appreciated and frankly make you look a little foolish/trollish. By all means, have your cars Classiche-certified - getting Classiche certification for the particular era of Ferrari you own is probably wise. But don't demean those who do not appreciate Classiche for what it is, how it has been run and what its long-term intentions might be. I've seen first-hand Ferrari's record-keeping from the 1950s - it ain't pretty.

    Six weeks from tonight, my family will be Ferrari-less for the first time since 1960, so I guess I should really care less!
     
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  21. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Rookie

    May 14, 2017
    2,523

    Sorry to have gotten you so upset. No need to freak out on someone just trying to learn. A simple explanation would have been fine. You’re probably right, it would seem some of the older cars are very challenging, and as you stated, the factory doesn’t seem terribly interested in your gestures. I’ve seen many great vintage cars that are certified, so I’m guessing every car has its own unique story. Still, no need to lecture down to those who are taking part in the same pleasures you have for many years. Given that your profile has no details at all, it would be helpful to some of us who don’t read minds to know your ownership history. Anyhow, apologies for getting you so upset. I’m sorry the end of your seemingly great Ferrari ownership is coming to an end.
     
  22. Admiral Goodwrench

    Admiral Goodwrench Formula Junior

    Mar 2, 2005
    339
    Santa Fe, New Mexico
    Full Name:
    Robert Phillips
    https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/on-the-55-mondial-blue-spyder-to-be-auctioned-anybody-know-the-owner.580220/#post-146095402


    https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/naked-mondial.88341/


    https://www.caranddriver.com/news/the-admirals-ferrari-500-mondial-series-ii-goes-up-for-sale

    You might find these links instructive.

    Best regards,

    Robert
     
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  23. Dave rocks

    Dave rocks F1 World Champ
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    Nov 23, 2012
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    Dave Lelonek
    Is Admiral your father? I might have missed it. Thanks.
     
  24. Admiral Goodwrench

    Admiral Goodwrench Formula Junior

    Mar 2, 2005
    339
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    Robert Phillips
    Dear Dave,

    Yes to my delight, Bryan is my gear head car nut son.

    Best regards,

    Robert
     

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