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Classiche Annual Inspection

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by WCH, Jun 21, 2017.

  1. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Rookie

    May 14, 2017
    2,511
    Great reading. I didn’t know I was speaking with your son. You and I have actually exchanged messages before. Thank you again for sharing, and more importantly, for your service to our great nantion.
     
    Admiral Goodwrench likes this.
  2. Dave rocks

    Dave rocks F1 World Champ
    Sponsor Owner

    Nov 23, 2012
    14,865
    Orchard Park, NY
    Full Name:
    Dave Lelonek
    Thank you, Robert. He does not want to carry the torch for the next 58 years? :)
     
  3. Admiral Goodwrench

    Admiral Goodwrench Formula Junior

    Mar 2, 2005
    339
    Santa Fe, New Mexico
    Full Name:
    Robert Phillips
    Dear Dave,

    At heart we both are project car guys, and the 500 Mondial is a "finished" project. His E type and Classic Mini are current projects but we have had many such as a Queen Mother, MGA. MBGT. Stag, Alfa Sprint Speciale, Lotus Europa Twin cam (automatic), Mini Moke, turbo Pinto, etc.

    Best regards,

    Robert
     
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  4. Bryanp

    Bryanp F1 Rookie

    Aug 13, 2002
    3,646
    Santa Fe, NM
    Rossacorsa1 - no problem. I'm not upset at all - I just wanted to point out that your tendency seems to be wanting to learn, but also being dismissive of anyone who might have an issue w/ Classiche. The trials and tribulations w/ Classiche go back to even before Classiche went public. Did you know that one of the first goals of the program was to produce parts for the vintage Ferraris that hadn't been available in decades? What a fantastic way to create good will amongst a group of Ferrari owners that had been ignored for decades. But that didn't happen (I don't think that the vintage Ferrari community invented the term "unobtanium", but we could have). Instead we got what appeared to be a craven money-grab for a fancy binder, followed by a yearly money grab. Those who were deeply involved in the vintage Ferrari world pre-Classiche actually knew how to research cars, or reach out to those who did - like Mr. Massini. My first personal experience w/ Classiche was when an authorized dealer called me up, since I knew a few things about the 365GT 2+2, to ask what I knew about the emissions equipment that had been Factory-installed (and often immediately stripped off) on the US spec cars. The tech I was talking to didn't know that the Factory had a tech bulletin from 1969 specifically about that system (sourced from GM). They were charging someone thousands of dollars for a Certificate and they called a "guy who might know"?? The kicker was that I knew the car and the owner! I'm sure (or at least I hope) that the level of expertise re: the vintage cars at the deputized dealers has increased since then . . . . So you will run into many skeptics here, with good reason.

    Dave - the Mondial's story is about a young officer getting the best race car he could afford, followed by decades of racing, research, writing and showing. By an accident of birth, I got to go along for the ride. Growing up, I just thought that a lot of people had a beat up race car kept in the corner of the garage! I will always be eternally grateful for having been part of the Mondial's story - but it's not my story, it's my Dad's.
     
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  5. Bryanp

    Bryanp F1 Rookie

    Aug 13, 2002
    3,646
    Santa Fe, NM
    Thanks for reminding me of our turbo Pinto, Dad; I had almost completely purged my memory of that thing. A wagon w/ "wood" sides . . . .. It couldn't tow our racing Mini Moke thru an intersection, hence the turbo installation- thank God for JC Whitney . . . Anything to get to the track.
     
  6. Dave rocks

    Dave rocks F1 World Champ
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    Nov 23, 2012
    14,865
    Orchard Park, NY
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    Dave Lelonek
    Very well written - thank you. I know so little about the vintage cars but I'm looking to learn more. I'm not looking to derail this thread but to your point about obsolete parts, I'm a mechanical engineer and Sticky RX is a division of my 21 year engineering and manufacturing company. We are looking to grow beyond the refinishing of parts are are now starting to work on projects to solve problems and reproduce parts so my interest in learning about these older cars is growing more and more.
     
  7. Simon1965

    Simon1965 Karting

    Feb 8, 2011
    237
    HKSAR
    Full Name:
    Simon

    Regarding the thesis that people have to be 100% original in terms of parts.- Back in 2014 when I had my 330 certified they were very reasonable for example. Fuel pumps. I changed out the electric fuel pumps on the car as the original fispa pumps were tempromental more modern Bosch units much better. Ferrari were fine with this and issued the book providing I fitted the correct reversing light. My sense was all that really mattered back then was matchin* numbers
     
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  8. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Three Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 28, 2003
    35,113
    Texas!
    This is the way it should be. A car is only original the day it leaves the factory. But if the major components are there and match, the rest doesn't matter.
     
  9. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 6, 2008
    4,610
    southwest germany
    Full Name:
    romano schwabel
    major components?
    I think to this belongs:
    frame and body
    engine: but when you put in an other equal engine it is still ok ? or when you have inside oversoze pistons?
    gearbox: same as with engine
    rear- and front axle: often some parts are rebuilt and nobody sees
    brakes:same as the axles, and what if you modify the brakes for safety?
    glas all around: when a glass is broken you replace it of course, but not all is original available
    lighting: same as glas
    I could go on so but I think everybody knows

    so all is matching, but still not original
     
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  10. CornersWell

    CornersWell F1 Rookie

    Nov 24, 2004
    4,536
    That's a nice spin, but I've read a lot of posts from you promoting Classiche and urging owners to put their cars through it.

    Many "old timers" in the community, of which I guess I may now be considered one, don't have much good to say about Classiche. We were here before it. We've watched it from the beginning and its' evolution. We've seen the politics, manipulations and fraud. We've experienced the "blank-check" treatment. Some of us have had our cars, arguably, de-valued by it. This, of course, is on top of SpA's virtual disdain of its' customers for decades.

    Many of us happily put up with that disdain and the politics, but, for me, the company changed with Enzo's passing. LdM was, at least, part of the "family", but these days SpA is "just" a money-making machine talking about SUVs and merchandising. Yes, they still produce some great cars, but it's not remotely like it was. So, to pay into a dictatorial program is ludicrous when many of us know more about our own cars than the factory might. And, don't get me going on the money grab aspect of it.

    You suggest that Classiche is "voluntary", but it's really not. Certainly not if you want to participate in any SpA-sanctioned events. It's just plain absurd and occurs to me that this is not unlike the infamous Xerox anti-trust case. Perhaps it will be litigated one day, as it went way past the point of usefulness into heavy-handedness and monopoly power virtually the day it was conceived.

    You can buy into it, if you like, but get off your high horse about how great and valuable it is. It isn't.

    CW
     
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  11. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Rookie

    May 14, 2017
    2,511

    Thank you for your opinion. I’ll put you down as a solid “maybe” on Classiche.
     
  12. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Rookie

    May 14, 2017
    2,511

    Very cool photos. Thank you for sharing these, Marcel.
     
  13. johngtc

    johngtc Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Mar 4, 2005
    814
    Yorkshire, UK
    Full Name:
    John Gould
    I make no comment but don't you just love this ad by a UK trader!

    Full details of our LaFerrari – Has done only 52 miles, comes in the special Rosso Fuoco Paint, is Ferrari Classiche Certified, has just been Serviced By Ferrari and comes with Ferrari Manufacturer's Warranty until August 2019.

    Clearly the Classiche certification will allay any concerns potential buyers may have :)
     
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  14. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Rookie

    May 14, 2017
    2,511

    That's funny. I am pretty certain that the LaFerrari (because its a special edition car) comes with Classiche Certification. I'm pretty certain that all race cars and special edition cars receive what is called a yellow book. If anyone can confirm please do.
     
  15. DWR46

    DWR46 Formula 3
    Honorary

    Jun 19, 2012
    1,087
    Race cars are eligible for "Red Book's" if they meet the criteria.
     
  16. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Rookie

    May 14, 2017
    2,511

    Got it. I do know that LaFerrari’s and other very limited edition cars receive a yellow book.
     
  17. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    455
    Some posters recently established the term ‘Classiche haters’. Well, without really wanting to deepen this remarkable approach I humbly feel that certification of an untouched LaFerrari with 52 miles on the clock is pure money grabbing and just wonderful entertainment unseen of the book’s colour. But contrary and considering the below report it could be of some interest to understand Classiche’s certification criteria for LM 5899. And I wonder if for cars of this calibre Classiche also requires an annual recheck? Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
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  18. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Rookie

    May 14, 2017
    2,511

    Nonesense. Here’s another amazing Classiche certified car that was at the Quail yesterday. Such a treat to see these cars out here. Just another run of the mill sucker owner I guess. Ridiculous.


    Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  19. DWR46

    DWR46 Formula 3
    Honorary

    Jun 19, 2012
    1,087
    Rossocorsa: I do not understand your point. I helped pull 0728 from a garage on the South side of Chicago in 1974, with a Chevy in it. We then found the original engine under a work bench at a machine shop. The fact the Bardinon restored it has nothing to do with Classiche or the current owners showing the car.
     
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  20. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Rookie

    May 14, 2017
    2,511

    I never said anything about the restoration. My comment was regarding the certification and the nonsense directed my way in another post. My point is that the car (which is fabulous by the way) is Classiche Certified. There are many on here that think that anyone who gets a car Classiche Certified (particularity a vintage car) is basically a fool, they are being duped, and they are throwing their money away. They also claim the certification holds no weight because Ferrari Classiche is simply an empty stamp of approval. On the contrary, I am honoring the work you did.

    I never claimed that Classiche is the only avenue that someone should go to restore a vintage car. I likely wouldn't if I was in the situation; however, there is a certain group that has a lot of animosity directed at Ferrari for even offering the certification as if it was mandatory.
     
  21. KenGoldman

    KenGoldman Formula Junior
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    May 25, 2009
    473
    MASS., USA
    Full Name:
    Kenneth Goldman
    To DRW46: What a great story about finding the TR as a wreck.

    Perhaps you can share a bit more of this experience.
    I am sure others would love to hear it.

    Ken Goldman
     
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  22. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Rookie

    May 14, 2017
    2,511

    I concur. Please share your experience with this car. It would be fascinating.
     
  23. DWR46

    DWR46 Formula 3
    Honorary

    Jun 19, 2012
    1,087
    The attached photo was taken at Hilary Raab's house after we brought the car back from the garage in a really bad area on the south side of Chicago. Since it had a Chevy in it, we decided to see if it would run. One case of beer later, the engine made noise. However, there were no brakes but that did not stop us from driving it around the block a number of times before the police arrived. 0728 originally had a 4-speed transaxle. However, when the Chevy was installed they put a Borg-Warner T10 behind the Chevy and then connected it directly to the Ferrari transaxle. Therefore, 0728 became the first 8-speed Ferrari (actually they locked the transaxle in 4th gear).


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  24. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Rookie

    May 14, 2017
    2,511

    Incredible story.
     
  25. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Three Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 28, 2003
    35,113
    Texas!
    We get it. You love Classiche. But, you're becoming boring because you fail to recognize many don't.
     
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