Classiche Certified Replacement Block

IMO Classiche is a good thing and absolutely necessary for the correct and authentic preservation of classic Ferrari cars for the future. Cars are not like paintings and need to be maintained and refurbished using Ferrari made or Ferrari approved parts.

 

While I tend to agree with you that most engine failures are reparable, it's not always the case. We have experienced one such failure. Other failures have been repaired. The original block still exists in storage and, perhaps, in time, the technology will improve to the point which it can be repaired. However, for the time being, it's a paperweight.

CW

 

You have this and that, and that's wonderful, but the fact remains that MOST old race cars don't come with an extensive spares package. So, do you feel that your case is the exception to the rule?

CW

 

you can still get a full Classiche certificate, even if the engine number does not match the chassis number - as long as it is the correct engine type - ie in a 275GTB a type 213 engine. No need to go to the expense of replacing an engine with a Classiche block just for the certificate.

My understanding a Classiche certificate goes further into the authenticity of the car - they do several metal dating tests all over the chassis, no idea how this process works, but if you look at a car that has just been Classiche Certified the chassis has loads of small areas where the black paint has been sanded off.

Also new money investors love a Classic Certificate - sadly that's a fact, so for the £4k approx cost, you get that back plus extra on the sale of a car - sad i know, but its a fact.

 

Correctomundo, Senor!

CW

 

Hire someone knowledgeable and pay them for an independent evaluation. Even Classiche has their own conflicts and well-known errors. In the end, this is always a Caveat Emptor situation. One does their homework and hires their "experts", but there is always the chance that things aren't as advertised.

CW

 

If Ferrari Classiche was simply a service at a reasonable price that certified the originality of the car I would applaud them for their efforts. However when they offer to supply a new block at an extortionate price that is not even made by them, I find this hypocritical and a scam......... Time will tell if there is a future to Classiche but I think even new buyers will soon realise that the Classiche certification is meaningless.

 

paintings get refurbished and restored as well, some i have seen are almost repainted or extensively re-touched!
As far as i am aware this adds value to most important historic works of art. It seems much more accepted in the art world, copared to the historic Ferrari world.

Different game i guess, different strokes.

 

General Parts 2011

The internal number continue in sequence where the original type 213 blocks numero interno ended

Note 275 GTB/4's, engine type 226, have type 213 blocks. Reference parts manual

 

Previous posts have cast some doubts on the "purity" of Classiche certification. If it isn't credible what use is it?

 

Let's cut to the chase.

Who do you think is more qualified to restore 002.

Me or Classiche?

Keep in mind that the people I got to do it have names such as Brandoli, Fantuzzi, Scaglietti,Borsani, SILINGARDI & DIENA in serveral case two generations of them.

How about 0854?
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I have no doubt that you have the contacts to do it. And, given what I KNOW of the Classiche Programme, I'd expect that you would do a better job in-house and there would be no question marks. But, you're also not casting your own motor blocks yet, are you?

And, once again, most people don't have access to the same folks or parts supply that you do.

CW

 

We are casting our own transmission cases and stamping them as modern parts. (We have so many P transmission parts that in addition to three complete original P gearboxes with verifiable history we have enough internals to make two more so we cast new casings for those parts so my Great, Great Grand kids can use them if necessary.

We can cast entire blocks, heads and make wheels as needed.

 

There isn't really a simple answer to that question. My immediate answer, without giving it much thought, would be if you use the people that built the car originally and have the documentary evidence to prove it then it can't get better than that but in their absence Classiche is the next best thing. However, do you or the people you use still have the original drawings and licence to manufacture those parts? That Ferrari instructed those people to make or design whatever they did is a huge factor as that's what made it a Ferrari. Without Ferrari, 002 or any other Ferrari would not have existed.

 

And, it's exactly for these reasons that I simply won't buy another race car without a comprehensive spares package. It's taken a decade or more for us to put spares packages together, but until that point, if something went wrong, the car was in bits for months with things being patterned, reproduced, in transit, fitted and installed.

For anyone considering buying OLD iron, this is just something that cannot be ignored, and it's getting more and more difficult to locate replacement parts. Folks like Shaughnessy are doing important work, but if they can't locate and procure the widget you need...

CW

 

If Enzo hadn't sold 002 Ferrari might not exist today but that's a separate discussion.

When Enzo was short on money he gave the father's of some of those guys the original spare parts that I now own along with the original engineering drawings as payment for their services.

 

Ferraris need continuous maintenance and replacement of parts. If someone uses a company other than Ferrari or their approved manufacturers of those parts for the spare parts required for its upkeep than that erodes its being as a Ferrari.

 

If a restorer had 2 engine blocks- one period, one newly cast- and proceeded to build 2 new identical engines using new crank, pistons, liners, studs, etc, and placed them in two reasonably identical cars, would an expert be able to tell old vs. new just by driving the car? How about new vs old heads?

I understand the sentiment attached to originality, and why that's significant. I'm just curious if there's a qualitative difference more than anything else.

 

Nope. Legally that is not true especially in the case where Ferrari gave other's the right and ability by giving them original drawing years ago as payment for services as Enzo did.

In the US you have the absolute legal right to manufacture auto parts to repair and restore a car you own.

Ferrari Classiche does not make parts. They buy them from the guys I use. In some cases they try to restrain some from dealing with individuals directly and there is a anti trust action filed by Chinetti on this issue but for 40 years I've had no problem obtaining anything I need directly in Modena and Ferrari is totally aware of what I do and have done and the last time I talked to Classiche flatly stated:

"If you're happy we're happy"

This statement directly followed:

"Jim's a ****ing Sicilian"

and them then buying lunch for me.

 

NOS is different than newly cast. When newly casting one corrects mistakes that we're originally made and uses better metal that is less porous and stronger. The new castings are stronger and less prone to failure.

A driver could tell in that a newly produced engine will rev easier and make more hp as internals are lighter and gaskets are better.

With gearboxes the same is true. They're stronger and shift easier.

 

That's a fact, and very interesting...

I know I wandered the NHRA Finals last year, and I was really envious of all the aftermanrket industry supportig the efforts of the competitors, thinking to myself:

"Gosh, if only MSD would pattern a 308GTB ignition, and I could get DART to crank out a dozen 308GTB engine blocks, to put on the shelf."

Any of us, plannng to run these cars long term, are ALREADY up against severe parts shorrtages, for any major repair.

Drive on.....

I love those old blueprints...they bear the sweat equity, and mental effort, of a different time..now we CAD/BIM and 3D model and it spits out the end of a triple axis milling machine.
Fun certainly, but lacking a certain "something"....hard to express....

 

I'm pretty familiar with etching techniques as I've studied metallurgy as a part of my M. Sc. and maintain my view that most stories of lifted numbers are pure folklore - at least the ones I've heard - but knowing a little of what you have been involved with, I believe you have seen it performed with success. I also think that success rate is very high because those performing the magic know very well what can be done and when to stand back.

Best wishes, Kare

 

Although I am a neophyte to Ferrari, I have some idea
of the questions, since I collect, restore and sell
International MotoGP bikes, which are quite collectible,
and were for racing only.

If real estate is location, location and location, our Ferrari concern
is documentation, documentation and documentation.

I have a client that has just committed to my very best
restoration of a 1976 model, and is considering lap days,
parades and the occasional sprint race.

We discussed the idea of a "duplicate" engine, made with
all NOS parts for his track work, to save the "original" motor.

He has decided to have me create a complete but modern duplicate of the bike,
including frame, suspension, brakes, bodywork, engine and exhaust. That way,
if he throws the bike down the road, no "vintage" parts will be at risk.
From 20 feet, it will look 35 years old.

The original will be, well....all original. It will be dyno tested with
all NOS internal period parts, and guaranteed to match the
factory specs for power delivery.

The duplicate will be much faster, handle better, stop better,
and cost less. It will be made with all-new metal........

Guess it depends on whether you want to look at it,
collect it, invest in it or drive it.

Scott