Comments ...

I understand the notion that owning a car gives you the right to do with it as you wish. On the other hand taking this GTE apart to build a replica anything is destroying original artwork to make fake artwork.

TomB

 

+1 Unfortunate for sure but if it's your Picasso you have the right to destroy it. It is fair to boycott and spread the word about these chop shops to discourage these practices.

 

A link directly to the thread: http://www.tomyang.net/cars/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3736&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a


Onno

 

While i dislike replicars and would never own one,I would like to see a ban on photos of them in this section of the forum.

 

Pete
I share your disgust but what can we do? These vandals, bogans, trogladytes, peasants, morons, call em what you like etc etc have the cash to do what they like. So when a good GTE is worth less than a GTO FAKE minus the cost of the necessary conversion work, then the economics dictate that GTE will be DESTROYED to make FAKE GTOs as long as people are willing to fund this rubbish. Us getting angry will not change things. Ferrari can be a business, an ego, image and prestige thing, or a passion. The guys with the passion for these old cars can NOT understand these people who do this ****. I had better stop there as this stuff really gets to me. I would be interested in any suggestions that would actually stop this rubbish. We can all get angry but that will not stop it happening.
Make sure you come on the Lowe rally next year. It will be FUN. A celebration of old bangers with people who acatually love these old cars for what they are. NOT for the ego, prestige, money blah blah.
John

 

Congratulations to PsK for proposing a ban on replicar pictures, replicar posts, and replicar related subjects in the vintage section. I would also ban replicar people.

Fakers and fakery are an unfortunate pollution of a forum section dedicated to vintage Ferraris. They demean and devalue our passion, parading an indifference to aesthetics, history, and conservation that is often designed to irritate and provoke. The wanton destruction of great cars, and the blatant intellectual dishonesty in proudly displaying fakes indicates principally a radical difference in VALUES here between the great fans and contributors on one hand, and the faking trouble makers on the other.

The fakery is usually accompanied by a dishonest and fallacious reasoning that goes somehow like this:

"The only people interested in originality and history are number-obssesed, concours-fanatic poseurs who drive their cars less than ten miles a year. Replicars, on the other hand, are driven and enjoyed the way Ferraris should be."

BSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBS!

Concours participation and number obssesion are minority interests, especially in Europe. The people who appreciate these cars drive them like crazy. I put more than 5000 km per year on EACH of my Ferraris. They all participate in a rally or two every year, where thankfully replicars are absolutely forbidden.

The fakers, on the other hand, are nothing but an ignorant stain on all our efforts, and on this board. A nice thread develops about people's favorite 250's, interesting pictures are posted, and then... Somebody posts a picture of his own very poorly executed fake California body, ... on a 365 2+2 frame!!!!!!!!

Then there was the faker who indignantly insisted that his fake TdF was "more real" that the originals, and accused all his critics of the usual number and concours obsession...

I despise those fake cars, and I think that anybody that truly loves, understands, and appreciates vintage Ferraris should feel the same.

 

or another way is to show up these ****heads whom buy this fakes.

 

EVERYBODY here should condemn and shun these people whenever they post. Make them feel unwelcome. Their fakery is ALWAYS accompanied by offensive rudeness, as a recent thread amply demonstrated.

Of course, an easier solution would be to create a replicar forum section, often requested.

 

at least this HOS,was built from non Ferrari parts.
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I think it's good to see photos of such cars, so we can see the disaster. It's good to list them.

 

what gets to me is,how Ferrari car clubs around the world are happy for these cars to go along to events.
For a start perhaps all the clubs around the world could put a ban on listing these cars in there registers and allowing them along to events.

 

While in the past making a fake 250 GTO may have made economic sense I doubt it does today. The cost to make one far exceeds the value. There is one that has been for sale for ever.

One point about this one. If the previous owner kept the chassis and vin plate and sold the rest as parts this one can not legally claim it's original chassis identity.

The best thing IMO for this person to do would be to buy a clapped out but complete car and use these parts to restore that one. He would then have a legal vin #.

 

+1!

its the same with crashed Ferrari - no one wants to see destroyed cars, but its important to know, what chassisnumber was damaged.

 

A very important point. Not only would that remove the implicit approval and deny them publicity but it would also remove one of the reasons to own such a car. Showing it off.

 

The high end replicars tend to be owned by high worth individuals with lawyers in the pocket. Who wants to go toe-to-toe with a billionaire over the genuineness of a "tach needle restoration" or other questionable history?
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I really don't see the connection.

"Tach needle restorations" are not the same as pure replicas. No one is trying to pass off a 250 GTO replica as a real 250 GTO and even if they were it wouldn't be hard to see through that.

IMO the key is disclosure. As long as there is full disclosure regarding "Tach Needle Restorations" all is good. Cars are what they are and some replicas such as Jans Sharknose which is fully disclosed is pretty cool. I also think it's important to keep in mind that Ferrari has reused/restamped chassis/ripped off original bodies and replaced them with something else and in the case of some very sought after models chopped the tops off of coupes (275 GTB NART).

I personally have used an Enzo to make Ferrari P 4/5 by Pininfarina and am using a 430 Scuderia to make P 4/5 Competizione. Ferrari has yelled at me for retrieving a chassis they threw in the trash bin and bringing back 0846 from the dead even though they did allow that the pieces I used are "glorious pieces" and it's good that I preserved them.

I think every case is different. I note that many are horrified by 250 GTO replicas but covet Norwood P 4 replicas.

 

+1

 

I tend to agree.
Are race cars "Special Cases"? They evolve through design and mutate through crash damage so its impossible to establish a "Correct" condition other than to recreate the car at a specific point in time. Such as how it was configured at birth or at its greatest win.
In any case I think most of us know what constitutes a fake when we understand its gestation. A lot has to do with intent.

 

The Internet has had an amazing effect on this. Incredible amounts of information comes out and shows up.

 

I think someone on Tom Yang's site suggested exactly that, and even pointed him at a potential car. IMO this is exactly what he should do-- he'd not only have a legal vin, he'd have saved a car. This one is already lost-- whatever he does with it (other than using the parts on another car) will only result in a mashup.

 

Name and shame.
Yep we need a section addressing cars that have been destroyed,with photos and names of builders/owners.

 

I have suggested this several times, as have others. I don't quite understand why it hasn't happened. Of course, there is a difference between a replica (say, a "GTO" made from a Datsun Z) and a Ferrari that has been modified or rebuilt as something that it wasn't originally (a "GTO" made from a 250GTE, for instance), so I guess you'd need to distinguish between those in the forum.

 

Julio
I agree 100%. I think the fundamental difference is that like TRUE art aficionados, true vintage Ferrari enthusiasts have a true passion and love of the cars for what they are. These other people have a very different view. They see these cars as a status symbol, an ego booster, an investment or whatever. And I too have no interest in VIN numbers, concourse etc. I drive my car (Sometimes hard. That V12 at red line is pure music) and love the experience. Meeting other vintage guys is also a great benefit of having a love of these old cars. We need to shame these barbarians to go a play somewhere else.
John