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Concours Query

Discussion in 'Ferrari Discussion (not model specific)' started by opus10583, Jan 15, 2006.

  1. opus10583

    opus10583 Formula 3

    Dec 3, 2003
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    Mark
    Spurred by the discussion of "the Sheehan Dino" (if anyone has a link to his SCM article I'd be grateful) I've been wondering: What would you, the experts, estimate the points value of a fresh from the factory 1974 Dino 246 GTS, should one miraculously turn up at Pebble Beach, absolutley unmolested, unused, and unaged?

    TIA
     
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  3. opus10583

    opus10583 Formula 3

    Dec 3, 2003
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    ...No one?

    Too hot a topic?
     
  4. George J.

    George J. Formula Junior

    Apr 18, 2005
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    Unused and unaged don't exactly go together. If the car rolled out of the factory and into storage I don't think it is going to run too well.

    Pebble also does not invite a lot of regular production cars, I was shocked when I was asked to bring my Alfa SZ, one of 169 built (I hear the number remaining is just under two hundred).

    George
     
  5. parkerfe

    parkerfe F1 World Champ

    Sep 4, 2001
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    Franklin E. Parker
    All cars start with 100 points...points are then deducted for various items.
     
  6. ArtS

    ArtS F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Nov 11, 2003
    6,073
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    Frank,

    I disagree. If a grading system is such that it favors greater care being taken during the restoration than during the original manufacturing process then 100 points would be given to an over-restored car. The way I read the article in SCM, a car leaving the factory would score 95 to 98 points. It would have all new hardware and fasteners but the fit and finish would, most likely not meet Mr. Sheehan's description of a 100 point effort.


    Opus,

    In the ideal world, and in some grading systems, a car at the end of the assembly line would be 100 points - this is rarely the case.


    George,

    I think opus was speaking about an ideal case.


    Regards,

    Art S.
     
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  8. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Dec 6, 2002
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    By definition, a Factory car would be 100 points, but it would have visible wiring hanging below the dash, a few runs in the paint, some orange peel, and poor panel gaps would not be unheard of.....

    The point is most restoration work is to a higher standard than original, as it is done one at a time and the owner ids usually inspecting it with a microscope!
     
  9. opus10583

    opus10583 Formula 3

    Dec 3, 2003
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    I've been searching for a copy of the Sheehan article ever since reading about it in this forum, to no avail. Do you know of any internet version?

    That's what I've gathered from reading here, but it seems illogical, to be kind.

    To clarify, if you could present a right-off-the-assembly-line 1974 246 to the PB judges, what would they grade it as? Gold, Platinum, 100pts?

    How about other well-known events?

    It does seem proper to me to start with "as delivered new"=100pts., and deduct from there as not original.

    Thanks.
     
  10. dm_n_stuff

    dm_n_stuff Global Moderator
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    Dec 10, 2003
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    You probably would have gotten a higher response to this question in the Vintage Forum. That's where all us Dino-heads hang out.

    So, fresh from the factory, probably 95 points, unless you could prove it's all original, which I'm sure would get you a point or two.

    I've read Sheehan's article. It's an interesting read, but he says it would cost $300,000 to put a 100 point Dino together, and it would still NEVER GET INVITED to Pebble Beach. Way too common a car.

    That's not to say you wouldn't be the envy of every regional event you went to. Butyou'd be owning a Dino you would be inside-out on forever, and that you would be afraid to do the most fun thing of all with, thrash it about on the road, which beats winning at concours anyday.

    DM
     
  11. George J.

    George J. Formula Junior

    Apr 18, 2005
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    This is correct, however points can be added as well for aspects such as style. Theoretically a car on the lawn at Pebble could have over a hundred points. Cars that are used and enjoyed are also encouraged. - George
     
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  13. parkerfe

    parkerfe F1 World Champ

    Sep 4, 2001
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    Regardless of whether you disagree or not, that is the way a FCA National Concours works. All cars start with 100 points and the judges then deduct points as they inspect the car...See item 3 at this link...http://www.ferrariclubofamerica.org/concours_guidelines.cfm
     
  14. opus10583

    opus10583 Formula 3

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    My mistake, I only meant to use a Dino as an example, as I was rather dumbfounded by the "Sheehan Dino" thread, and the ideas that not only wouldn't $200k get a _perfect_ Dino, but another $100k would be necessary for 100pts versus 95...

    The question probably works even better if 250 Pinin Farina Coupe is used instead.

    So, now my question becomes: How is a 95pt car deficient compared to a 100pt car, a 98pt car?

    If "as new, as delivered" is considered inauthentic what's even the point?

    Got it. The point that is, I still can find the article...

    Thanks.
     
  15. msdesignltd

    msdesignltd F1 World Champ
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    Nov 17, 2003
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    It is my opinion that concours is dead!
    The standard is the way they were delivered or the original car, period.That should be where 100pts. start.If the car is used and shows no signs of alteration, no damage. then no deductions should be made.That is not the case.
    Original cars were Asymetrical as they were hand hammered.Restored cars have corrected that.
    Todays concours are nothing more than Beauty contests.
    an unrestored car in 0riginal Livery should outweigh a squeeky clean restored car anyday.Pebble beach has turned into a Miss America contest and the one with the most plastic surgery and silicone wins.
     
  16. opus10583

    opus10583 Formula 3

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    CAN'T... I still CAN'T find the article...
     
  17. ScuderiaRossa

    ScuderiaRossa Formula 3
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    I think the more-sensitive restorers try not to over-ride period production issues like asymmetry...
     
  18. parkerfe

    parkerfe F1 World Champ

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    I have noted that the number of high level concours events are increasing, not decreasing. Amelia Island comes to mind as a concours event that has grown leaps and bounds over the last few years. And, as great cars get older and fewer , orginality will be more important, not less. But, that's just MHO.
     
  19. dogue

    dogue Formula Junior

    Sep 2, 2001
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    Terry
    The rules are designed for preservation as well as originality. If a car has original paint and it is dull, it will have points deducted. A car with original seats that have fading and cracking and bolster wear will not fair as well as a car that has had the interior redone to factory specs. Part of preservation is repairing, including cosmetics. Of course a brand new off the line car should receive maximum points, but it is up the the owner to prove that the car is original, so if panels don't fit correctly and emblems are misplaced and wires are hanging, you would need to produce pictures from the assembly line proving that is how Ferrari put the car together. Or at least that is the way I understand it.

    Terry
     
  20. dm_n_stuff

    dm_n_stuff Global Moderator
    Global Moderator Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Dec 10, 2003
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    I have a unique perspective on this, as my Dino is currently getting stripped and repainted and all the trouble areas repaired.

    During the course of the work, as we went to reassamble the car and apply the epoxy filler, we discovered that the door gaps were very uneven, and particularly wide on the passenger door.

    Some hours of metal work later, the gaps are now even. Would this make a difference over a car that is still factory fresh? Probably. My panel fit is now better than the factory original on my car, without straying from what at least some of the cars must have looked like new.

    There was an interesting story on here some time ago about watching these cars get assembled at the factory. They would fit the car with several different front boot lids until one was a good match, due to panel variations.

    So, fit is an issue, and one that can be addressed during a good paint/body repair, perhaps picking up that 1/2 point the other guy didn't get.

    DM
     

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