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cost to modify 308qv intake for EFI?

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by zff, Nov 19, 2003.

  1. zff

    zff Karting

    Nov 1, 2003
    145
    Hawaii
    Full Name:
    Ken
    Can someone give me a rough idea of what it would cost to have the intake manifold on my 308QV modified for EFI? ....machining the bosses and somehow working a fuel rail around or under that throttle body?

    I like to fantasize about ways I could build-up my car when I'm working on it, and I keep daydreaming myself into a corner because I'm missing this info. :)

    Does anyone know where I could get intake manifolds that let me mount carbs (or TWM's ITBs) on my QV? ...and price? It would help my daydreams immensely... :)

    TIA
     
  2. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
    11,384
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    The Butcher
    I keep thinking it's a 3-6 hour job, but others have said I’m smoking crack and they were quoted about $1000. You could try Rob at

    http://www.force-efi.com/

    Tell him I sent you, I bought all my fuel injection stuff from him and have sent a few other people there. He's very knowledgeable and EFI conversions are his only business. I think I would be willing to do it for you for $600 just to see how long it actually does take.

    I’m sure Norwood could give you a quote too.
     
  3. atlantaman

    atlantaman Formula 3
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    Mar 31, 2002
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    zff--
    I posted this about 2 weeks ago so you might want to look back at the pics and notes

    there are 2 ways of going about this

    1- remove your intake manifolds and replace with injectable throttle bodies --the easy way
    or
    2- do some extensive machining on your intake manifolds to install the new injectors AND make a fuel rail for this

    I did mine last year and it was not easy. Here are the steps...

    a. machine down the risers on the intake, bore out for injector bungs, epoxy in new bungs--about 8 hours work
    b. machine and weld a small extension for your throttle body to extend it beyond the injectors to prevent inteferrence. 6-hrs
    c. fabricate and weld a stainless fuel rail and supports (so it won't blow off from pressure.--about 16 hrs work

    all together you are looking at 30-40 hours to do this and average machining costs are about 50/hr. If you were local to atlanta I could possible take a look at it but would charge 2000 for it--the fuel rail is a real pain in the butt!!!
     
  4. zff

    zff Karting

    Nov 1, 2003
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    Ken
    I hadn't thought to check the "new" archives. It's amazing how much useful history is here already.

    Thanks
     
  5. pma1010

    pma1010 F1 Rookie
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    Jul 21, 2002
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    This may be less relevant to you post, but if I was looking at something like this, I'd consider something like TWM's throttle body injection. I've never looked in detail (although I've heard good things), but the idea of 8 separate venturis [and injectors] in place of a plenum and a single TB sounds like an interesting option. I thought I remember reading the TWM stuff was a couple of thousand dollars, so it won't be cheap, but I'd guess you'd have a hell of a system. Just a thought.
     
  6. zff

    zff Karting

    Nov 1, 2003
    145
    Hawaii
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    Ken
    I've looked at them. The problem is I'd need to find an intake manifold can mate Webers (since those TWM ITBs are a bolt-in replacement) to my QV heads. From what I've read in the archives, the carb manifold from the 2v heads won't fit on a QV.

    I know it sounds like I'm doing a lot of research into something I might only daydream about, but then I used to daydream about owning a Ferrari, too. There's a chance that somewhere in the future, I'll actually do this.
     
  7. snj5

    snj5 F1 World Champ

    Feb 22, 2003
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    Russ Turner
    There are sets of cast manifolds to fit Webers 40DCNFs made by Frank Capo of Modena Engineering in Austrailia that fit 3.0 and 3.2 qv heads.
    Although I used Webers on my 3.2, the TWM Throttle bodies would fit fine; I believe Ric Rainbolt has a picture of these manifolds with the TWM throttle bodies on a 308 qv on his website.
    hope this helps your long term planning......
    best
    rt
     
  8. 308GTS

    308GTS Formula 3

    Dec 27, 2001
    2,220
    TN
    How much are those intakes from Modena Engineering?
     
  9. snj5

    snj5 F1 World Champ

    Feb 22, 2003
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    Russ Turner
    Addendum to below:
    The Modena Engineering manifolds on a 3.2 - will accept Webers or the TWM throttle bodies.
    best
    rt
     
  10. snj5

    snj5 F1 World Champ

    Feb 22, 2003
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    Russ Turner
    "How much are those intakes from Modena Engineering?"

    Well, when you can find them, they are what ever they are. Frank said he had some around in Oz, but I got mine for $1500 NOS from Blackhorse in Ca. You can get them for less I would think if you have time to nose around. With 4 carbs at about $1000,the conversion parts total was like $3K. Looks great, works great.

    good luck
    rt
     
  11. Matt Morgan, "Kermit"

    Matt Morgan, "Kermit" Formula Junior

    Nov 12, 2003
    405
    Ferndale, WA
    I did a set of runners that sound muchlike what you are looking for , for Bret Mellilo. In his application, I added TPS, 70mm TB, Idle speed motor in place of idle bypass screw, and an Air Cleaner adaptor that replaced the Bosch K-Jetronic, so that he could use all of the stock intake pieces. check with him on how well it worked, and the priceing.
     
  12. zff

    zff Karting

    Nov 1, 2003
    145
    Hawaii
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    Ken
    Thanks for all the help guys.

    The ITBs *do* look cool and probably sound wonderful, but if I do this, I will probably go with a modified stock intake.

    ...but I have just a few more questions about ITBs. Where do you get vacuum for your brake booster? Where do the MAP and MAT sensors get their readings? How do you hook up the idle air control?
     
  13. randall

    randall Formula 3

    Nov 2, 2003
    1,352
    Portsmouth, VA
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    Randall
    Anyone hear of the Holley kit?
     
  14. chaa

    chaa F1 Veteran

    Mar 21, 2003
    5,058
    Getting my 328 upgraded after christmas by ferrari specialist. And was quoted two prices. First was £3000 for head work and new injection parts to richen fuel delevery which should give an extra 20-30 bhp. Second option is the Weber Alpha set up with worked heads and upgraded compleate injection system at a cost of £11,000 ( i was told originaly told £6,000, but there you go its a bloody ferrari), this set up gives around 80 bhp extra. I dont know what it would cost in the USA in comparison, but every thing in this s**t hole of a country is expensive.
     
  15. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
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    Chaa, it's my understanding that simply removing the bosch stuff and converting to EFI is good for about 35 hp...and it shouldn't cost more than about $3000 maybe $4000 is you have all the work done. For $15K you could have a blower or turbo installed and be at about 400 hp....just a thought.


    Randall, I tried to find more info on the system you posted, couldn't. It looks like they are simple selling a 2 barrel TBI unit. so you would plug the stock injector ports and some how adapter there throttle body to the intake...then you'd need a trigger for it. It looks like snake oil to me..in theory it can be done, but it does not look like they are not selling a bolt-on kit, you'll need more stuff and it will never work as well as port injection.
     
  16. Trinacria

    Trinacria Formula Junior

    Aug 7, 2002
    665
    Long Island, NY
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    Baldassare Guzzo
    Mike
    I contacted Rob from force-efi a while ago (I got tired of waiting for you to design me a 2V blower manifold LOL). He needed more information, so I sent it to him but he didnt reply. EFI has been on my list for about a year. Depending on his price I think I might go with the modified intake, fuel rail, Haltech EK6, set up.
     
  17. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
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    Trinarcia,
    It's funny, I called Rob the other day because I wanted bigger fuel injectors and there was a guy from CA on the other line asking him about doing a QV EFI convertion. I gave him a bunch of info. I bought my stuff from him, but he only had general info on the project, I handled the details. I think Rob is a little hestitant about doing a convertion for a car he's never seen. If you call him, I'm sure he has what he needs to quote you now. Or if you want, I can convert your manifold for.

    And I I'm just starting to build a 2v blower manifold for another guy in CA if you want in ton that project. He's getting a bigger blower and intercooler than I have on mine and then planning to add NOS. 700-900 is the goal. I could make a more normal one at the same time if you want, say 5-10 psi, 40-60% hp increase.
     
  18. atlantaman

    atlantaman Formula 3
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    Mar 31, 2002
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    guys, this is not a hard job--just is time consuming. I have a ton of pics of my system and can help you with it.

    there is basically one question--do you want to stay with original intakes and plenum or go with throttle bodies.

    I may be able to do your intakes for you if want

    IF staying with original intakes you need to do the following:

    1- machine the boss on the intake runners down low enough for the injector to reach the air flow
    2 get 8 "bungs" from MSD to epoxy into the new machined holes.
    3- make an extension for your throttle body to exteen out past the injectors because the linkage will hit them.
    4- make some spacers to raise your plenum about 3/4' to get verticle clearence for the throttle body.
    5 (the hard part) make a fuel rail.
    6 machine and fit a toothed timing wheel to the damper
    7 install new sensors.
     
  19. atlantaman

    atlantaman Formula 3
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    Charles
  20. atlantaman

    atlantaman Formula 3
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    Mar 31, 2002
    1,726
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    Charles
  21. atlantaman

    atlantaman Formula 3
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  22. zff

    zff Karting

    Nov 1, 2003
    145
    Hawaii
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    Ken
    Here's a pic of Norwood's EFI mod on a 328 intake:
    [​IMG]

    I spoke to them on the phone. The price for this conversion depends on how much work you want them to do (fit regulator, install injectors, make taps for various sensors and IAC, etc.)... but it was less than $2000, even for a fairly comprehensive conversion.

    The person I spoke to said he had done several of these and he sounded quite familiar with the process.
     
  23. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
    11,384
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    I'm still thinking $600 to convert the intake including a fuel rail, another $150 for a throttle body extender/adapter (to install any thottlebody)

    If you are happy with the stock distributors, the haltch E6X will run the fuel and fire the distributors using the stock bosch pick-ups you already have so thee is no need to mount a pick-up and trigger wheel. If you what DIS, you'd need to either go to a trigger wheel or a cam position sensor.
     
  24. atlantaman

    atlantaman Formula 3
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    Mar 31, 2002
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    I have been getting lots of e-mails about this so I will try to expand some on the machining.

    Intakes

    the efi injectors are quite a bit shorter than the cis units. the tip of the injector should be just in contact with the air stream so the "bosses" need to be machined down about 1/2" and the hole driller out to proper diameter for a MSD "bung" to be epoxied into place--I would not weld tham since aluminum warps a lot when hot.. use marine grade 2-part epoxy.
     

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