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Countach QV FI Thread

Discussion in 'LamborghiniChat.com' started by johnhoughtaling, Nov 2, 2017.

  1. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    #826 joe sackey, Nov 27, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2018
    Fair enough, everyone is entitled to see things differently, I recall years ago that some disagreed that 4-liter Countach cockpits were smaller, till it was proven by actually measuring the cars.

    I actually never thought about the subject of rear-window visibility, until it was brought up as a negative against the Downdraft in that car's thread.

    So I looked into it and found that it appears that the least effective rear-window visibility of all Countach variants is from a Fuelie.

    The main reason for this is the twin humps either side of the engine cover are quite tall and are in place exactly where you'd want visibility down and alongside the edge of the engine cover, whereas with the Downdraft the exact opposite is true. The 3rd brake light significantly compromises rear visibility for the Fuelie as well.

    Additionally, if you put a Downdraft and a Fuelie both side-by-side and actually measure the differently trapezoid shaped areas of visibility, and then use the formula to calculate total visible square area (ft2), perhaps you might find that the Downdraft has more usable rear window

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  2. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    One useful thing that came out of the comparison is, it appears that by the simple expedient of removing the 3rd brake light of the Fuelie, you can gain significant additional rearward visibility

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  3. Ellagirl

    Ellagirl Formula 3

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    Straight back rear visibility is a non issue in any Countach, my wingless car is no problem reg this,also i do like my third brake light in Old People Florida,they might actually see me. The blind spot between rear wiew mirror and side mirror is the issue, radiator scoops,they are on all wariants, my trick is you see a car in your side mirror,gun it then change lane,knowing you ar way ahead.
     
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  4. Ellagirl

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    You might have missed this,but the rear wiew mirror on the dd looks directly inn to your power dome, unless of course you rubber necking it.
     
  5. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    If you are taller in the cockpit you actually see over the power dome well, but the clear vision either side of it is what really helps

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  6. cnpapa24

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    You see as much as you need to see in a downdraft. No more no less. The complaints about visibility are silly to anyone that has driven one. I have never driven a fuelie to know if the same is true.
     
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  7. S_AGATA

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    The only way to drive in any Countach ;)
     
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  8. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Rookie

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    I think it’s fair to say that rear visibility is pretty lousy regardless of which QV you prefer, even if one may be better than the other. Conceding that, I must agree with Joe. The power dome on the downdraft is the single most intense design feature of that model and one of the main reasons why I love it so much.
     
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  9. ken qv

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  10. Ellagirl

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    I actually like the engine cover on the fi,very brutal looking
     
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  11. EMILIO

    EMILIO F1 Veteran
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    YES!

    i seem to remember i commented that the car would be in anycase a good buy for future price increase of all countach variants
    i think on **********
    other members told the buyer the car was a good buy aniway but he wanted seller to take it back in any case
    today we can all agree the car was a deal :(
     
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  12. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Rookie

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    It’s a great cover as well. I would call the FI cover my second favorite.
     
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  13. ElvisNasty

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    I do remember that, I think this issue was that Rienzi misrepresented the car so badly. He told Hershey it was an excellent car and didn't mention all the problems it had.

     
  14. EMILIO

    EMILIO F1 Veteran
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    may be...but still car was sold for something like 90k$, i think the cars were on the up already so i would have kept and restored
     
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  15. 5000 QV

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    Why are the FI 5000 QVs nowhere near the top? Because "collectors" decided? "The "market" has spoken? For example, why would a 5000 S or series 3 "S" be considered more valuable than a 5000 QV FI? Both the series 3 "S" and 5000 S have less power than a 5000 QV FI but nobody seems to care or be obsessed with comparing a DD's performance to those.
    What seems to be put forth by many is that there is somehow a "6th Countach variant" known as a 5000 QV FI, which is a special USA-only car and that this variant is the slowest and least valuable.
    Complete non-sense!
    In fact, the 5000 QV FI is the more rare version (Approx. 1/3 of total QV production) and it is also the most evolved version since it has Fuel Injection (which Porsche 911s have had since 1972 and all Ferraris have had since 1982). The Ferrari 288 GTO, Ferrari Testarossa, Ferrari F40 = FI cars. Lamborghini could not afford to lose out on its largest single market (approx. 1/3 of sales) so they had to "wake up", invest in FI and catch up with the auto industry. Lamborghini was a small company with limited finances. After the DD, the carburetors were gone - this was old technology. The Diablos are all FI. This is not to suggest anything negative about the DD! The DD is essentially the last evolution of the Carburated Countach and the end of an era but the FI version can be considered the most evolved Countach, period. The DD has a "unique" 4-valve V12 but put that in the context of the late 80s and it makes sense since no competitor was even developing carburated V12s anymore. The FIA homologation is interesting but it is over-hyped.
    The point here is that both DD and FI are different versions of the 5000 QV and belong on top of Countach hierarchy.
    Of the 5 Countach variants, the 5000 QV is the arguably the best version. 5.2L, 4 valves per cylinder available with Carburetors or Fuel Injection. The QV is the most powerful version of the "poster" Countach (which include variants #2 "S", #3 "5000 S" and #4 "5000 QV" whether its a DD or FI. Every other Countach that came before had 370-385 hp. Yes, the FI cars had add-ons (bumpers, etc.) to comply with the US regulations but those can be "corrected" to look as the Euro version whereas on the Anniversary (variant # 5) the cosmetic changes are shared by the Euro and US market version (except for the front bumper).
    The 5000 QVs (DD and FI) are the ones to have. The market is wrong to value the FI cars as it currently does and this is probably due to the very vocal market influencers who promote the DD version as being Godly while discrediting the FI version. The DD is great but so is the FI, one does not have to shine at the other's expense.
     
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  16. johnhoughtaling

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    As a CT owner for more than 2 decades, having restored a CT many times, and as the current owner of several varieties I disagree a bit.

    I don’t think it’s any recent market influencers. The market for CT models have been pretty consistently divided since inception. I’ve been a CT owner for more than two decades, restored several, and currently own 3. The DD, the low body and the LP400 have always been in a separate category, each model for its own reasons. Carb’d cars have always been worth more than FI cars. Same with Ferrari boxers. Always has been, always will be.

    Yes certain cars are at the top because collectors decisions decide, collectively. It’s true that markets go up and down and the collector market can suddenly change on value between models, but that happens rarely. It’s also true that sometimes there’s an irrational basis and things change. Normally however values relative to different versions of a model general stay the same. There are many examples of this in the car world. I’m not a corvette guy but find one that spots a “tanker” split window coupe and they will go bananas and pay 30-40% higher for that model than the identical car sitting next to it, Simply bc it holds a few gallons of gas more. I’m a vintage jag guy, and I’ve been making offers for an “outside bonnet latch” 61 e type for 50% more than an identical model, and 300% more than an ethos that looks nearly identical, simply bc it has two stupid, small, ridiculously inconvenient latches on the side of the bonnet. It’s true that sometimes collectors, and the market can be irrational. And there are countless examples of this.

    But I fail to understand why anyone, at least any Buyer in the market, would make the following argument.

    1. I like model A better or as much as model B. And I think model B is objectively better than model A.

    2. Model A is cheaper than model B, so I want to change the opinions of the market so model B should cost me as much as model A.

    I don’t understand why a buyer would want this. I do understand why an owner or seller should want this.

    However, I also think that if you like model B better, you also don’t need to argue it’s every bit as good as model A. You can just say I believe B is a better value, than model A. Plenty of examples of people, where money isn’t an object, preferring value.

    I agree that FI was new tech, but I don’t believe that’s the issue about why there is a huge disparity in desirability between the models. The main reason for the disparity has been the DOT bumper conversations done at the factory (and in US). Because CT were so cheap for so long the DOT bumper conversations were left, and this kills the desirability of the car completely. With values rising, and with collectors understanding that the market respects (ie a car is more valuable) by correcting the conversation, then you will see, in the future less of a black stain on the FI. The black stain is the DOT bumper conversation. As Boxer owner will tell you. A carb’d car will always be worth more than a FI model, but there are some livability advantages to the FI engine.

    But the main point is that to deny the desirability of the DD is to be contrary to the reality of the market. For me it’s the ultimate. But for that reason it is very expensive, and in the future will be even more so. For the FI owners, they should take pride in knowing they can remove a DOT conversion with only benefit and know they have a car that they can argue poses value. Any other position IMHO separates from reality and lacks credibility.

    Now that I’m guilty of what I am about to criticize, can we stop talking about DD here?





    QUOTE="5000 QV, post: 146336541, member: 223239"]Why are the FI 5000 QVs nowhere near the top? Because "collectors" decided? "The "market" has spoken? For example, why would a 5000 S or series 3 "S" be considered more valuable than a 5000 QV FI? Both the series 3 "S" and 5000 S have less power than a 5000 QV FI but nobody seems to care or be obsessed with comparing a DD's performance to those.
    What seems to be put forth by many is that there is somehow a "6th Countach variant" known as a 5000 QV FI, which is a special USA-only car and that this variant is the slowest and least valuable.
    Complete non-sense!
    In fact, the 5000 QV FI is the more rare version (Approx. 1/3 of total QV production) and it is also the most evolved version since it has Fuel Injection (which Porsche 911s have had since 1972 and all Ferraris have had since 1982). The Ferrari 288 GTO, Ferrari Testarossa, Ferrari F40 = FI cars. Lamborghini could not afford to lose out on its largest single market (approx. 1/3 of sales) so they had to "wake up", invest in FI and catch up with the auto industry. Lamborghini was a small company with limited finances. After the DD, the carburetors were gone - this was old technology. The Diablos are all FI. This is not to suggest anything negative about the DD! The DD is essentially the last evolution of the Carburated Countach and the end of an era but the FI version can be considered the most evolved Countach, period. The DD has a "unique" 4-valve V12 but put that in the context of the late 80s and it makes sense since no competitor was even developing carburated V12s anymore. The FIA homologation is interesting but it is over-hyped.
    The point here is that both DD and FI are different versions of the 5000 QV and belong on top of Countach hierarchy.
    Of the 5 Countach variants, the 5000 QV is the arguably the best version. 5.2L, 4 valves per cylinder available with Carburetors or Fuel Injection. The QV is the most powerful version of the "poster" Countach (which include variants #2 "S", #3 "5000 S" and #4 "5000 QV" whether its a DD or FI. Every other Countach that came before had 370-385 hp. Yes, the FI cars had add-ons (bumpers, etc.) to comply with the US regulations but those can be "corrected" to look as the Euro version whereas on the Anniversary (variant # 5) the cosmetic changes are shared by the Euro and US market version (except for the front bumper).
    The 5000 QVs (DD and FI) are the ones to have. The market is wrong to value the FI cars as it currently does and this is probably due to the very vocal market influencers who promote the DD version as being Godly while discrediting the FI version. The DD is great but so is the FI, one does not have to shine at the other's expense.[/QUOTE]




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  17. PineChris

    PineChris Formula Junior

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    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat[/QUOTE]
    I do not believe the DD has always been more expensive then the FI in the U.S. Many people here including myself could have purchased them for similar trading prices and chose not to. I believe that once customers in the U.S. realize that the FI was produced in smaller #s, and that if they really want a DD they can easily import from outside the U.S. this matter will change. I do agree on the DOT conversion. Once this is done, along with the removing the emissions equipment , inmo the FI is better in all aspects than the DD.
     
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  18. Ellagirl

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    Iow. If the person who posted ths actual



    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat[/QUOTE]
    as always,i enjoy reading your posts, in this case,the guy you are replying to happens to disagree with you, your Corvette comments are not relevant comparisons,these are tiny tiny prod nmbr examples,and therefore valuable based on nmbr alone. This gentelmans post simply states the fact of the worlds introduction of fuel injection wich at that point where used by every manufacturer,the nmbr of qv with fi where less than carbs, and the final ultimate example of the qv, iow first step inn to the new,. I get the current value/pricing, no need to argue this, time will tell. But again, the gentelman posting is of a different opinion than you,and his post is indeed very well explained and to the point of wich we all very well understand, respect his oppinion, everything written in his post are facts,nmbrs, again keep posting ,i enjoy reading them
     
  19. johnhoughtaling

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    #844 johnhoughtaling, Dec 5, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2018
    PineChris

    I completely understand why you can argue a preference for the FI even if they were the same. But I can’t ever recall the market has ever valuing a DD and FI car the same. If you saw a DD for a comparable value of a FI, then you missed an opportunity to make money.

    I never will understand why one would make an argument so easily disproven and false and ignore a good argument. You may prefer a FI more. With both a DD and FI car I can understand the argument. But I’ve seen no evidence of the collector car market agreeing with you 20 years ago, and i don’t now. There are a lot of funds that invest in cars. Maybe you can convince them of that trend, and if you are right you’ll make money. But I doubt you will succeed in convincing anyone to hedge values this way. Maybe you will be right that the market will value FI cars and DD the same in the future, but I doubt you’d find many who would bet money on it. I just don’t know why one would be so obsessed with this point.

    I do share the belief that once the DOT conversions are removed from all FI cars, the values and perceptions will rise, but I also think the DD will also rise.

    If you prefer the FI over the DD you should encourage other to celebrate it bc it’s cheaper and this much better value to such a person.

    I sure wish more people disagreed with what I valued. Interesting how different my perspective is. I wish everyone in the car market hated what I loved. I sure wish I could convince the market that a 57 pontoon fender TR is a pile of junk with drum brakes is completely outdated tec and ugly. I wish it was an old race car and it was still when people would prefer a new one. Could save me 50 million if I could. But I think it’s better I concentrate on selling my Ethane to China.


    I do not believe the DD has always been more expensive then the FI in the U.S. Many people here including myself could have purchased them for similar trading prices and chose not to. I believe that once customers in the U.S. realize that the FI was produced in smaller #s, and that if they really want a DD they can easily import from outside the U.S. this matter will change. I do agree on the DOT conversion. Once this is done, along with the removing the emissions equipment , inmo the FI is better in all aspects than the DD.[/QUOTE]

    PineChri




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  20. ken qv

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    I don’t know how far back but for a very long time DD prices have been higher.. I paid more for my car 11 years ago and had been watching prices 6 years before that.. premium was in place that entire time. Arguing the market made an error is as fruitless as My idea that initial big money investors didn’t understand the variants and mistakenly pushed up LP400 prices [which used to be lower than f.i. cars!). The price difference grew wide long before Joe bought his and started trumpeting for it regardless of what one post wonder boy posted. Anyway, as usual I personally don’t care which one is “better” ..our 2 dozen Countach contributors here in LChat don’t set the market and aren’t going to change it.
     
  21. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    #846 joe sackey, Dec 6, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018
    You are making some false claims.

    As both John & Ken have tried to tell you, the Downdraft has long been more expensive than the Fuelie in the USA, and it is not true that many people including yourself could have purchased a Fuelie at the same price as a Downdraft when you purchased your car (which for purposes of illustration I will assume was in 2012).

    Some of us who do this full-time 24/7/365 collect every shred of data of both public & private transactions that can be gleaned for our database for posterity, so allow me to enlighten you.

    Let's take the year 2012 @ 6 years ago:

    Some Fuelies for sale that year would be GLA12025 priced to sell riced to sell at $79,900, HLA12036 for $89,500 by Gullwing Motor Cars, HLA12198 in La Jolla for $125,000, JLA12218 the famous yellow car for $104,600, JLA12275 in San Diego for $98,500, and JLA12310 in Deerfield Beach for $110,000, so the average asking price was $101,250, and we can assume the average actual sales price was a bit less, let's generously say $100,000.

    Some Downdrafts for sale that year would be HLA12078 the red/tan car in Florida for $210,000, FLA12830 the black/tan car in South Carolina for $225,000, JLA12292 the Blu/Tahiti Kaiser car that Cats had for $275,000, JLA12410 the Simon Furlonger car in the UK for the equivalent of $205,000, and HLA12043 in Switzerland for the equivalent of $215,000, so we the average asking price was $226,000, and we can assume the average actual sales price was a bit less, let's generously say $210,000.

    In conclusion, even if you paid a lot for your particular Fuelie, the Downdrafts available when you purchased your car in 2012 were much more money.

    If you research the Countach Values thread, you will see prominent trade market participants of the community individually report average Fuelie values in 2012 when you bought at around $75,000 to $125,000, and report average Downdraft Values at around $125,000 to $250,000, which collectively supports the archived data above with good precision.

    In my professional experienced opinion, the values delta between these variants will actually continue to widen as each generation of collectors by nature become more selective and seeks the ultimate performance version of any particular model, this concept is nothing new, we see this with Ferrari and we see this with Porsche, Lamborghini is no different.

    It is no longer seen as true that the Fuelie was produced in smaller numbers than the Downdraft, in fact Simon Kidston who has access to the factory records says its more like @ 300 plus cars each, in any case, the Downdraft is vastly rarer than the Fuelie in the USA where there are over 200 Fuelies but scarcely 30 Downdrafts, including all the cars we have brought in.

    Now that people realize how easy it is to import a Downdraft and the cars can be registered in most states in the USA, values will in fact increase as demand for them increases against fixed or diminishing availability as I'm already experiencing, same as we have seen with European F40s coming into the USA, for example.

    It is not true that the Fuelie is better than the Downdraft in every way. The facts are, the Downdraft as tested by both the Lamborghini factory and privateers is indeed more powerful, faster, more valuable, better looking, more desirable, has a unique one-of-a-kind engine, is more collectible, doesn't require a full body modification and other emissions and exhaust modifications to be acceptable, none of which is disputable, so it's not a subjective matter of opinion, it's conclusive fact, therefore, that the Downdraft is better in all material aspects than the Fuelie. As long as facts are disputed, false claims can & will be refuted, that's only fair.
     
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  22. Ellagirl

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    Again,very clear and common sense.
     
  23. EarlyCat

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    #848 EarlyCat, Dec 6, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018
    Ahhh the good old days...I remember we were both shopping for a Countach at the same time. I bought mine probably 6 months or so before you (and shopping for sometime before that), IIRC. A fi qv was a 75k +/- car back then. A fi 5000s was a little lower. Not to make anyone upset, but a carbed 5000s carried a pretty premium over the fi. Back then I knew it to be a good 10k plus. And a dd carried an even bigger premium. Like 30k-50k. There was less than 20 (17?) dd cars to start with in the US & too new to be brought in legally without the dot epa problems. Going the carb route was expensive even back then, and the Countach was generally thought of as a bad investment by many in the car community. You really had to want it for what it was. To put the numbers in perspective on what a 30k+ difference was 12 years ago, a 930 was a average 30k car regardless of year, I passed on a nice Ghibli for 29.5k, I had a Dino in my hands for 52k (ARRRGGGHHH!) etc. It is what it is. So yes, the dd has been the more expensive car for the 14 years that I have watched the market.

    My preference for the carbs had nothing to do with extra power or investment. I did like the look better. Mine was because of another dream car I had. A 89 Corvette. In College I thought if I could just get that one car, let alone a Countach, there would be world peace and the angels would sing. Much to my dismay that Corvette was a real problem car. In addition to other problems, the fuel injection system gave me fits ending up on the back of a wrecker twice. Replaced fuel injectors twice (they shorted out). New computer. What would that cost on a Lamborghini? And how could I diagnose it? I know now that the GM system was built with electrical injectors and not mechanical like the Countach. I had a fuel distributor go bad on a 930, but it was nothing like that great GM feeling. I have never been stranded because of a carb & that was my thinking at the time, right or wrong.

    We have an old thread discussing values. Probably something fun to go back and read if you have the time.
    https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/official-countach-value-thread.356564/
     
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  24. Ellagirl

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    my earliest Countach experience in USA was an Auction in Sarasota, ca 1992-94 white/red DD did not sell,guy wanted 85 k , then again not a good time period for any exotic,at the time the Countach was nothing but the last years model,basicley just a used car.
     
  25. ken qv

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    I remember Joey.. good times indeed. Tony in Bonita Springs bought his S1 at the same time.. he paid 170 for it and some thought THAT was a lot at the time.
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