I thought 81 was the last of the low bodies. I don't think the bravo wheels are the cut off or a different model, unless you want to count the (mine) 88 Jalpa with bravos (which happens to be a downdraft ) as a different model.
I am not misrepresenting, I'm quoting what you wrote. "It wont happen either as all the guys who own cars with original Bravo wheels are starting to say: "Hold on a minute, our cars are physically different." As I stated, I have a problem with what was written on the registry, its what started this whole thing rolling, and now here we are. I can only say as I said before "the proof is in the cars." And you did at one point own a bravo wheeled Countach. Correct? As I have said before Joe, you do us alot of good, keep up your work and report the real facts. I DO respect you for what you do. Greg
Joe, It was John and I doing the measuring. John with the 86 QV and myself with my 79' black S1. Tony
Too long ago on a different forum... Mabe John or David remember all the numbers but for sure I remember: Different door size by 2" length wise Different lower rocker by 1.5" Lower rocker to roof 2.5" Now remember this was a "true S1" 79' Lowbody against a 86' Fatbody Tony
If my 80 LP400S ever arrives (hopefully soon) I will have all the measures in CAD so that anyone can go measure their car against them. I think that may be the best way to begin...it will be interesting!
- OK, by physically different I meant the wheels. - The registry has changed for YOUR benefit among others. - If "the proof is in the cars" as you say, the 78 and 79 cars look different. LOL. - I have a problem that a lot of trouble was taken to find the old guys and talk to them and it seems like they get no credit for their assertions. Almost as if they are irrelevant to the cars history. That sucks. 20 years ago Claudio Zampolli said something about Miuras (we dont need to go into it here) and several owners like yourself protested it as unlikely or incorrect. Well, here we are 20 years later and he has been proven 100% correct. The question is begged for which Greg perhaps you should answer: Why would Walter Wolf lie? What would he gain thus? Why would Gian Paolo Dallara lie? What would he gain thus? Why would they all have faulty memories? They seem dead accurate on lots of other stuff. - I owned a Bravo wheeled Countach at the time, correct. Maybe all this is the reason I dont own one now! LOL. Ill stick with the LP400 thankyou. As of now, as a non-owner of a LP400S, I beleive I can muster up the ability to be objective. - Greg, it seems you are full of doubt, so as I said, Im now taking a position and calling you out to PROVE your assertions that the 78 & 79 cars are NOT S1 cars....youre officially appointed as the problem-solver on this one because you have suggested that what we have been told by the old masters makes no sense. We will patiently and respectfully await the published outcome of your findings. Till then all we have to go on is what the old timers said and what the cars look like. - I agree with Tony, there are clearly 3 series (just like the Espada). 1. The bravo-wheeled cars. 2. The lowbody cars with smooth wheels. 3. The tall suspension cars All subject to your findings Greg. - We are ALL here to learn (especially me! LOL). Rememeber Greg on this very thread when Tony pointed out that your Countach badge was upside-down?? Did you doubt him? Did you correct it? How many years did you drive around with it like that? Or the mirrors? My point is, lets LEARN from the old masters instead of treating them like they are a bunch of irrelevants. Ive met most of them and Ive learned SO much from them. I for one, respect their view. And I dont think they lied to me, whatever the "talking cars" say to us. Joe BTW - As Ive said before, lets not be too harsh on the poor underfunded Registry and what is written there. In the stated objectives, we declare that we cannot guarantee that everything is 100% accurate and that owners should provide proof of anything they feel is stated wrongly and it will be changed (we have been perhaps too flexible with this). Please provide proof.
I have a stupid question. Do I understand correctly that the difference between the series 1 and 2 cars are the wheels only? There are no physical differences between the series 1 and 2 cars, other than different wheels? Thanks. Alberto
The only stupid questions are the ones not asked as the saying goes... There were a few differences: The very early 1978 S1 cars had the original LP400 steering wheel, small Stewart Warner gauges, the lowered suspension setting, 45 mm Weber carburettors, magnesium Bravo wheels etc. Fast forward with other minor changes to the S2 cars which did not have the Stewart Warner gauges, Bravo wheels etc. I have not PERSONALLY checked to see if they even have 45mm carbs (my received wisdom is that they have the smaller 42mm carbs). They still have the lowered suspension setting but went to the smooth wheels. Then come the S3 cars which have none of the attributes I described for the S1 cars. I am even told by the men who built the cars that the true S1 cars had the very original engine units ascribed to the LP400, and a good few of them were ordered with drop gears (these cars topping out at a mere 150mph or even less), but of course none of this can be readily proven. Still, I dont see why the old guys are lying. Ive been told lots of things over the years by the old-timers, and, you know what? They all seem to have a way of being proven to be right in the end. I mean, why would they lie about mere details to them? I beleive the old guys... When you think about it really, whats the physical difference between a late Miura P400 and an early Miura P400S? A bit of chrome and a single letter badge? Not even a wheel change. LOL.....food for thought. Joe
I did not say anyone lied. I did not say 78,79 cars are not S1s. What I said for the sake of clearing up all the confusion with the LP400S, is I dissagree how the Countachs following the 78,79 bravo cars were being represented on the registry. Maybe some of my questions and concerns could be asked and then answered by Wolf and Dallara. Don't just ask questions about the S1, ask questions about the cars that followed. Is there a 2,3 series? All worth while questions, and great for your book.We need to clear this all up. Not just me, all of us who care. However, thanks for the job offer Joe.LOL Greg
Fast forward with other minor changes to the S2 cars which did not have the Stewart Warner gauges, Bravo wheels etc. I have not PERSONALLY checked to see if they even have 45mm carbs (my received wisdom is that they have the smaller 42mm carbs). I'll try to help here, Mine has the 45 DCOE Webbers. As do many others further down the line. Greg
"They" said there was the Series One cars and Series Two cars. No mention of Series three, but its obvious the S3 cars are a breed of their own. Remember, after the end of the S1 cars, Dallara and Wolf were GONE, no longer associated with the factory. Thats where there is a gap in knowlege. You may disagree, but in future YOU should prove the received wisdom wrong. That burden is on you, to do the work to find out more about your own car's series, rather than to leave it to others, then come along and disagree without proving that your disagreement has any basis other than your personal opinion. In reality, we dont need to do this, but I suppose some of us want to - objectively. Ill say this: Im not sure about S2 or S3, but im pretty sure about the S1 cars. If the registry re-posts as such and you dont concurrr, PLEASE supply us with proof otherwise, we will be happy to change. Cant say fairer than that can we? Joe
Thats interesting because I know of 2 smooth-wheeled S2 cars around that chassis number range that have 42mm Webers. You say "many" others later have 45mm carbs...which ones specifically are you claiming?? Also, the information I have from Lamborghini importer Trefor Thomas who imported the cars circa 1980 onwards directly contradicts your assertion. Can 45mm carbs be easily swapped for more performance? Yes. Was that a common occurence in the 80s? Yes. Zampolli tells me he did this all the time and we notice a nice supply of unwanted 42mm carbs floating around advertsed for sale over the years. So the question is, does proof exist that the smooth-wheeled (S2) cars were all supplied with 45mm Webers? I know of a genuine 1979 Series One car that runs around today with 42mm carbs on it because the previous owner said it made the car more 'driveable' in town. As I said in a previous post, the difference between a late Miura P400 and an early P400S is not even a wheel change (the window trim was chromed rather than painted on the latter car). Do you accept that as a variant change? Or do you reject it? LOL. Just because Lamborghini's 1970s logic doesnt rhyme or reason with you or me doesnt make it any less than what it is. You didnt know your Countach badge was upside-down till somebody here told you. Well, now the old masters are telling you something....maybe you should be a little more accepting or open. Rather than you coming along and asking for the Series One classification that has been accepted for 20 plus years to be dropped as an easy fix to suit your disagreement (LOL), maybe it is YOU who should be more open to accept and learn - just like with the upside-down Countach badge. The Bravo wheeled cars are what the people at the works connected to the cars refered to as "Serie Uno". We choose to accept that in the spirit of learning. As for me, Im learning every day. Dont worry about a Countach book, there is a Miura book coming out later this year to keep us all busy. I get the feeling a Countach book is not due anytime soon. Joe
i forgot to chek carbs on 11213xx, i knew i had to talking with Savioli at Top Motors he told me about the big weber on early S cars, he said the later cars had little carbs, they were smoother and didn't suffer of the 3500 erogation's hesitation (veery common on 4 liter cars with 45 weber)
very late S car #1121456 top view is WOW so clean Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
"As I said in a previous post, the difference between a late Miura P400 and an early P400S is not even a wheel change (the window trim was chromed rather than painted on the latter car). Do you accept that as a variant change? Or do you reject it? LOL. Just because Lamborghini's 1970s logic doesnt rhyme or reason with you or me doesnt make it any less than what it is. Joe " Hi Joe, i certainly enjoy your comments and pictures on all Lambo topics. The change between the first P400S Miura and the last P400 Miura is quite notable with the S model picking up 150lbs or so of added structure and equipment. Externally, from a shiny paint standpoint, the brass window trim went from black to chrome, maybe CN73 instead of CN72. This lowered the Miura about 1". add a tail badge. There are probably 500+ pieces to make up the changes to a P400S. Best regards Craig
really? i always thoguht that the late P400 and early P400S were almost the same and the "lighter" thinner structure cars were only the early P400 made... the unfamous flexing chassis cars
There you go. Salvioli is the 2nd longest-serving Lamborghini employee behind Balboni, and he simply sees it as "First Series and Second Series", but I know if pushed and shown a line-up of various cars he would identify the Bravo-wheeled cars as the true S1. I have information from Jean-Francois Marchet and Rob de la Rive Box (who were both there at the time) that the S1 cars were simply 50 units with the Bravo wheels. Thats interesting, because now I go back to check on this matter, we are NOT able to find a single car after Mike Pullen's (ex-Frankie Bradley) 1121100 the 50th car, that was delivered with Bravo wheels that we know FOR SURE. Frankie Bradley took delivery of "100" new with gold Bravo wheels. We thought the Cannonball car was delivered with Bravo wheels but apparently not (im awaiting some confirmation of this from 2 different sources) and there are no pictures of it with them on. Anybody know of a car delivered with Bravo wheels later than 112100?? If so tell us! Interestingly too, reviewing my notes from my interview with Dallara, he recalled that "50 units" of the S1 car were made. This is a man whose memory is good enough to tell me in 2003 the names of all 8 men who were assigned to the Miura project in 1965 almost 40 years earlier. Doubt his recollection? Absolutely not! Also, note that Lamborghini would go from one series to another simply as a marketing ploy for sales as they did with the Espada. With the Miura, marketing boss Etienne Cornil simply suggested they stick an "S" badge on the rear and chrome the trim. THATS the way things were done at Lamborghini in the 60s & 70s folks, wether you see the logic in it or not, or agree with it or not. Remember these were some dire economic times too, especially the LP400S production period. Later Miura P400S received the changes you speak of Craig, not the very first P400S Im speaking of. As we all know by know, changes were gradual and occured within variant and series production. Thats well-established. Greg remarked that the difference between one series and another could simply come down to a wheel? In Lamborghini's way of doing things, the correct answer is: YES!!! In some cases they didnt even bother to change the wheels. LOL. We know that the Bravo wheels were still available after 1979 (George Evans ordered Bravos a few years later in the early 80s to put them on his 1982 car), so the change to the smoothies was a deliberate thing by the works, and one can be forgiven for concurring that it was to mark a NEW Series! I had heard a 'story' from a new LP400S owner that in 1979, Lamborghini was so cash-starved that before you arrived to pick up your new LP400S S1, you had to pay Campagnolo directly for the wheels! Joe
Joe, My first Countach #1121328 a 1981 LP400S high body or version 3, had 40mm Carbs and the Campagnolo smooth wheels. When the carbs needed work I bought a set of 45mm carbs form George Evans and had them put on the car. The early cars have 45mm DCOE, the later cars have 40mm DCOE the Downdraft has 44mm DCNF. Tony
Ergo small carbs swapped for bigger carbs. Did some cars have 42mm carbs as I was told? AS I said I havent personally checked... Joe
Very interesting. With "piped" seats/center console. Is the interior original? Anyway, it looks great, thanks for sharing Emilio.
Tony, Today I vow I am never buying another Countach without you there. In fact, nobody should. Offer your services. LOL. Joe
