News

David Piper restores the Talacrest P4

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by Streetrod, Sep 6, 2012.

  1. Streetrod

    Streetrod Karting

    Apr 16, 2011
    127
  2. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

    Nov 19, 2008
    6,422
    Cardiff, UK
    Full Name:
    Steven Robertson
    Fabulous. Great to see the progress Mr Piper is making along with Mr Collins. Thanks for posting.
     
  3. michael platzer

    michael platzer F1 Veteran

    Nov 12, 2003
    5,177
    Austria
    Full Name:
    Michael Platzer
    #3 michael platzer, Sep 6, 2012
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2012
    this is really leading to a controversy. im controverse myself. 0858 has history as a CanAm car that it is but it is a rebody from the original P4.
    on the other hand the P4 body is my absolute favourite. which car if not a real P4 should wear this body?

    lets hope David Piper digs out as much original parts as possible from his huge collection.
     
  4. macca

    macca Formula Junior

    Dec 3, 2003
    673
    Umm.....they're not restoring it; they're turning into something that it wasn't when it left the factory in order to increase its perceived value to catch someone with too much money....shades of GTE/GTO.

    Paul M
     
  5. michael platzer

    michael platzer F1 Veteran

    Nov 12, 2003
    5,177
    Austria
    Full Name:
    Michael Platzer
    it was a P4 when it left the factory and it was rebodied and modified later.
    for me its like fitting a new body to a crashed car. the problem is that 0858 isnt a wreck but a CanAm car with history and some race wins.
     
  6. merstheman

    merstheman F1 Rookie

    Apr 13, 2007
    3,418
    São Paulo, Brazil
    Full Name:
    Mario
    Can you call this a restoration? It's a bit of a grey area... On the one hand this car was, technically, a P4 once... but It's also a 350 Can Am... With racing cars it can get a little blurry..

    Nice video, though. I saw some of the pictures in a recent Talacrest ad on MotorSport mag...
     
  7. michael platzer

    michael platzer F1 Veteran

    Nov 12, 2003
    5,177
    Austria
    Full Name:
    Michael Platzer
    if you "restore" it back to P4 i would have preferred the berlinetta body. 0858 was 2nd at Monza and Le Mans as berlinetta. the history with the spider-body was not that important.
     
  8. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

    Nov 19, 2008
    6,422
    Cardiff, UK
    Full Name:
    Steven Robertson
    Yes, the car has a history as a Can Am car, and converted by the factory too but it was born as a P4 and that is its more desirable state. The decision must have been made to convert it back after a great deal of thought and of weighing up the pros and cons of doing so.
     
  9. Streetrod

    Streetrod Karting

    Apr 16, 2011
    127
    I do wonder how you go about putting a value on this car as after the restoration only the chassis and running gear are likely to be original. Also the car is getting a lot of updates to make it legal to race. The body will all be new and as good as David Piper is it won’t have been built by Ferrari.

    In its Can Am form I think John was trying to sell it for about £10 million but it did not sell, please correct me if I have got that wrong, so what do you think it will be worth once finished and how will it be regarded by the Ferrari world?
     
  10. michael platzer

    michael platzer F1 Veteran

    Nov 12, 2003
    5,177
    Austria
    Full Name:
    Michael Platzer
    what would a 250 GTO with non original body sell for today? 20-30 millions? so what. i have many pics of wrecked GTOs. all of them have non-factory bodies today and non of them is considered a fake!
    the only problem for me is the existing original and historic more or less important CanAm body on the car.
    no one would question the rebuild if 0858 had only a running chassis and drivetrain left.
     
  11. michael platzer

    michael platzer F1 Veteran

    Nov 12, 2003
    5,177
    Austria
    Full Name:
    Michael Platzer
    i am sure it will sell north of that 10 millions.
     
  12. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

    Nov 19, 2008
    6,422
    Cardiff, UK
    Full Name:
    Steven Robertson
    The decision who to use to make the body and do the conversion must have been an agonising one if Ferrari or their authorised body makers could have done so. I'm sure if that was possible it must have been considered but given Mr Piper's links with Ferrari, not least with Mr Ferrari himself, the fact that he has the drawings and probably more experience than anyone with the P cars both in racing them back in the day and in their maintenance, on balance Mr Collins may have thought that using Mr Piper would have ensured the best result.
     
  13. Streetrod

    Streetrod Karting

    Apr 16, 2011
    127
    I never used the word "Fake" What I was trying to say not very well was that this car has had three different bodies in period, first does the original Spyder body still exist? And second do any of its configurations make it more valuable?

    It failed to sell with the Can Am body, is it more likely to sell with the Spyder body, I presume John Collins thinks so?
     
  14. Streetrod

    Streetrod Karting

    Apr 16, 2011
    127
    That makes a lot of sense
     
  15. Aardy

    Aardy F1 Rookie
    Consultant

    Feb 21, 2004
    3,588
    France
    Full Name:
    Cyril TESTE
    Great !! Another replica...
     
  16. f308jack

    f308jack F1 Rookie

    Jun 7, 2007
    4,267
    Cape Town, South Afr
    Full Name:
    Jack Verschuur
    The problem is that it was not only the different body that made it a Can-Am: There were changes to the chassis as well as the drivetrain too.

    Second problem: Will Ferrari sanction it as a P4? Earlier discussions lead me to believe they will not.

    I have tremendous respect for the way David Piper goes about his business, but I think this time he's doing a wrong job. They better hang on to that Can-Am body, it may be needed in future.
     
  17. wpbekker

    wpbekker Formula Junior

    Dec 27, 2006
    286
    Holland
    Full Name:
    Wouter Bekker
    Unfortunately there is no proper factory modificated CanAm car left after this recreation which is a shame in my opinion. I like the initial bodywork the most too but we have to live with the fact that only five cars share this original bodyform, spyder or coupe, and from three cars the history is gone.
     
  18. readplays

    readplays Formula 3

    Aug 22, 2008
    1,513
    New York City
    Full Name:
    Dave Powers
    What a travesty.
     
  19. solofast

    solofast Formula 3

    Oct 8, 2007
    1,755
    Indianapolis
    This car is by no means a replica. Replicas don't have a chassis number that can be traced back to an in period LeMans scrutineering document. Replicas are made into something that they never were. This car is being restored to where it was at a point in time, but it is certainly not a "replica".

    This car is being restored carefully with bodywork that is true to the way it originally raced as a P4. Look at the body bucks and how they made them, from coordinates taken from the original body that David Piper still has. Also remember these were hand built bodies and no two were really alike, nor were they symmetrical, they were race cars, built quickly to be raced, not not to last. Alegretti didn't make this body, but if you put them side by side with an original, you would be hard pressed to say which one was built first.

    Ninety percent of the chassis is original, only the frame that holds the body aft of the rear cross member was modified for the CanAm version and that is relatively simple tubing sections, and these can be readily restored to as original.

    The engine is modified internally, and this can't be undone, so the car can't be restored to exactly its P4 configuration, but....

    Every person restoring a car, boat or house has an important choice to make. That choice is to select a "point in time" and then perform the restoration to represent what the object being restored looked like at that point in time. The person that owns the car is restoring it to the way it was raced, in period, before it was modified into the CanAm. The restoration isn't perfect since the engine can't be brought back to P4 spec, but this car is going to be as close to P4 as is humanly possible.

    The P4 version is much more useful in that it has road going equipment and can be driven on the street, and if it were my car that's the way I would restore it since that is the way I would use it. Other than doing vintage racing and taking it to car shows, the CanAm is pretty much worthless. It is by no means as attractive as the P4 was and as a CanAm, to me at least, it's just an old race car that wasn't successful.

    I would argue that the P4 configuration was the high point of the cars competitive history, winning the manufacturers championship. The CanAm was pretty much a bust, the cars were never competitive in the U.S., and other than running in NZ or South Africa against second rate competition the competition history of the CanAm wasn't much. One could easily make the point that the CanAm was an attempt to wring a bit more out out of a car that was made obsolete by rule changes and that the factory effort to convert the car to the CanAm was ill advised and doesn't represent the best and most successful configuration, and the P4 does.

    If it were my car I wouldn't care if Ferrari sanctions it as a P4, it is what it is, and it's all in the open to see. It doesn't have a perfect history. So what. 0846 is a "bitsa" built up from available parts, around the original frame. That, to me, doesn't make it any less desirable, nor does it take away the fact that the chassis IS the chassis that won at Daytona. These cars had engines swapped around body sections traded, and chassis were renumbered to match the engine stampings because that was easier than changing all the paperwork. These are old race cars and an imperfect history comes with the territory. I believe in time this car will be accepted as what it will be restored to, a P4 with an imperfect engine. Frankly that doesn't bother me that much. I'd spend a lot more for it restored to this condition than as a CanAm.

    Of course this is all my personal opinion and qualified as such....
     
  20. Terra

    Terra Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed

    Feb 16, 2004
    1,327
    #21 Terra, Sep 8, 2012
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2012
    Also, one must note that the 4-liter (3967.44cc) 330 P4 Tipo 237 motor differed very little from its 4.2-liter (4176.22cc) Tipo 237 Can-Am counterpart. My understanding is that the crank and 71mm stroke are identical, as is the 11.0:1 compression ratio.

    The extra 208.78cc (or 5.26%) increase in total engine displacement came about from increasing the 77mm piston bore by 2mm, to 79mm. The 350 Can-Am motor has a per cylinder displacement of 348.01cc vs 330.62 for the 330 P4 (a nominal per cylinder difference of 17.39cc, or 5.26%).

    This resulted in a 30 HP (or 6.67%) increase in power output (i.e. 480 @8500rpm vs 450 @8500rpm), and slight bump in torque.

    As per Ferrari, BOTH engines share the same Tipo 237 designation.

    Sorry for all the technological minutiae -- just trying to keep the scope/scale of the very minor relative spec differences between the two powerplants in correct perspective....
     
  21. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

    Nov 19, 2008
    6,422
    Cardiff, UK
    Full Name:
    Steven Robertson
    Excellent post, Solofast. That P4 0858 must retain the larger size engine, though differing very little as Terra concisely states above, must be accepted and not seen as a negative thing, but embraced and celebrated as part of its history as a Can Am car along with its achievements in the more desirable P4 configuration that it was born and now being reverted to by David Piper, a major player in the history of the Ferrari Prototype racing cars.
     
  22. Ferrari 360 CS

    Ferrari 360 CS F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 4, 2004
    5,851
    Cape Town,SA
    Full Name:
    Jacques
    I dont even think I should post in this topic because this whole so called "restoration" makes me rather sad, why because the Can Am car is unique, it has unique history and a far as I can recall its the last of this type of Can Am car, why go about changing it into something else, however I am sure the vendor selling the car has many many reasons for doing so.

    Be that as it may when the inevitable article is done on this car I do hope it does the Can Am part of the car justice.
     
  23. PAUL BABER

    PAUL BABER Formula 3

    Nov 1, 2006
    1,041
    London. UK.
    Full Name:
    Paul Baber

    The Pros and Cons being totally £££££££/ $$$$$$$$
     
  24. PAUL BABER

    PAUL BABER Formula 3

    Nov 1, 2006
    1,041
    London. UK.
    Full Name:
    Paul Baber
    on balance Mr Collins may have thought that using Mr Piper would have ensured the best result.[/QUOTE]

    I get the impression you have never met John Collins...... Please think £££££
     

Share This Page