David Piper restores the Talacrest P4

Given your statement, I am not sure you do.

So, what does constitute a cardesign in your view? The mere fact the car started life as a P4 and that the 350 Canam started in design and execution as a P4, doesn't mean the 350 Canam is not a genuine Ferrari tipo. That these changes wren't all that extensive, doesn't make it a hack job. The factory decides upon the cars identity. After this so called hack job, the car was no longer a P4. This has been discussed many times. Even today, the car is a 350 Canam with a poor replicabody.

Besides all that, you may want to call they way 6885 was given some extra cooling entrant at the front during Le Mans 1965 a hackjob, but there is still no denying it's historical significance if they hole was still there today. Hackjob or not.

he called the 350 Canam a hack job?

 

There are stories of imported english wheels in italian bodyshops making great coat racks, when they weren't too busy gathering dust.

 

Think and say what you will. David Piper, Graham Gould,David Mckay, Piero Casucci, Anthony Pritchard,Hans Tanner and others are the authorities on the subject. Read. You will learn and your opinions will have merit. tongascrew

 

Yes, a 350 CanAm is a genuine Ferrari tipo. So what? Its still a mod'ed P4. Why wasnt the CanAm a successful car? Because it was a half-assed effort and the car was actually never designed to compete in the CanAm series......the factory had a few racers they had no use for anymore and so they came up with the idea to cut a few things here and there and put a slightly bored out engine in them and they were ready to go....

I do agree that 0858 in its current state should not be called a 330 P4.

Actions tell more than words.

0844, 0858 and 0860 are essentially P cars....subjected to some unfortunate modifying in period but thats what they are and each owner of them along the line (except for WM but thats a story of its own) has decided they should be preserved in that form. I happen to agree.

 

I don't think anyone has any disrepect for DP. As I've said before he's lived a more interesting life then me and I'm sure most on this thread. I admire the man for his many adventures and accomplishments and would be honored to meet him someday.

I do not however look at his legacy with blinders on like others do in this thread. There are periods where he has been less then stellar and this is glaringly one of them.

You said earlier on in this thread let's see how it turns out, well we have. I then asked you to tell us what you think of the end result but you deflected by saying you would rather spend your time on other threads with merit but.... Here you are back on this scrapheap of a thread saying the car was done by experts....

Let's forget the whole Can Am controversy for one second. Lets say we are rebuilding a lost P4. I would like to know if you feel this rebody does justice to the legacy of the real P4 0858.

So please answer the question you promised you would when the car was done, which it is...

Do you think that this car was done as well as could be?

Do you think there was anyone that could do it better?

From looking at photos do you feel that the body shape is a spot on representation of how the P4's looked originally in the day?

If not what do you think is off and how off do you see it as being?

Underpinnings aside do you feel this car more accurately represents the shape of the P4 versus a Norwood P4?

Just one man's curiosity... Vincent Vangool.

 

I would really like to know this as I feel it is important to pass the facts on to future generations of restorers. Are there any photo's of the wheel being used on the P4 or even sitting in the corner of the shop as stated?

Is there any photographic evidence of an original P4 body with English wheel markings?

Or is this just PR spin thrown together for a video that was obviously produced to counter act the discussion in this thread?

 

It's total BS. I own 0858's original P4 spyder tail. It is hammered period. None of it was made on an English wheel.

As an aside Piper never owned a P4 nor does he now. His "0900" is a 350 "P4" replica with P4 0860's original P4 spyder body fitted. At one time he owned a 412P, a 350 Can Am and a P3/4. He no longer owns any of those.

 

The video does seem to be a direct response to this Fchat discussion. I don't know enough to have an opinion whether or not the video is spin or truth, but they must have been biting their tongues for a very long time waiting to respond to this thread.

 

Here's an original 412P tail as last raced.

Here's the surface of two other original 412P panels.

Look's hammered to me.
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The whole hammered v english wheel things is just a red herring on this thread, if the new body panels had actually been hammered the detractors would then be saying Talacrest used the wrong type of hammer, and the tree stump should have been Italian Oak not English Oak!

Until someone views the car is person then the comments based on a few photos as to how accurate the body is is also pure speculation whichever side of the fence you sit.

Even then unless that person had seen 0858s body in period even they could only comment based on period photos of 0858 at a point in time, as each car was pretty unique and panels would have evolved in period as they were damaged and replaced.

 

The question I have is the car Piper measured from would it be considered to be accurate?

They make a point in the video of using the exact measurements from 0900 to be accurate with P4/$.

I don't consider myself anywhere near to being the worlds top P4 expert but even to my untrained eye this car seems to be way off visually.

 

I'd hate to think this is concocted but from my knowledge it simply is not true?

I'm watching from the sidelines but I can't help but think this is concocted to provide legitimacy to P4/$'s new body.

If in fact it is a PR ploy it pretty much shames the entire project even more then it currently is.

 

It is a minor point compared to taking an original car to build a copy, I agree.

But it is not minor. Restoration is building a car as close as possible to how it was originally constructed.

Replica/Repair is fixing a car the way you'd do it.

This is the holy grail of cars. At least in the top ten. To finish the car any less then it is originally built is an insult to it's history. If you can't do it 100% then you shouldn't be playing with history.

Do they need to use the right type of hammers? Yes. There are certain hammers that do certain jobs.

This is not as simple as a hammer with a red handle versus a blue one. This is a completely different process that leaves a completely different end result.

Sure you wont notice if the car is covered in filler but these cars weren't. Therefore it has everything to do with how authentic the car was restored.

It's no different then using modern welding techniques or paint formulations etc.

The point is not that the body construction technique is just wrong on this car, it is that there are many things done wrong on this car that keep it from being what it could be either as an authentic Can Am or a reborn P4.

In either incarnation a car as special as 0858 deserved better. Unfortunately all we have is a car that is inferior in construction to a 6 figure Norwood replica. Which I believe is built with an English wheel.

Sad.

This is the Kanye West of automobile abominations.

 

Vincent you seem to believe that a car is just a skin and that everything else is irrelevant.

I believe Enzos view was the complete opposite

In a previous post you even say something along the lines of forget what's underneath, that is so blinkered it waters down any argument you make massively.

To add a human perspective, with all these recent face transplants going on, who is the person after the operation, the one who's face can be seen or the one underneath?

If someone has a heart or liver transplant, are they no longer the same person?

 

I think another thing many of the posters need to remember as well is that the internet is not a private soapbox, or place to gossip, its very much public and people will be accountable for any statements they make.

If those statements are viewed in a negative fashion by the current and future owners of an asset and these posters cannot produce concrete evidence to support their views then they may well be held accountable in law for any effects on that asset.

The internet is not going to vanish, this thread and its contents in theory may survive longer than the dead sea scrolls.

I dont think I would want some hot shot lawyer taking an interest in something I wrote currently, in the near future when these cars could well be trading for £100 million plus.

 

I would love to see the flimsy case a court would receive based on opinions posted to an internet discussion board which start from a very public restoration.

It would be laughed out and the owner with the bruised ego that much poorer having paid his costs.

Good effort trying to stifle debate though. You may have well of simply posted 'stop saying things I don't care for'.

 

You keep going Ginge it makes no difference to me. I am just an interested bystander.

Someone who has the ability to blow $25 million on an old car would treat the cost of tracking down and then going after people via the legal system, who are making spurious claims in public regarding an asset they own, which could have a detrimental effect on its value, as pocket change regardless of the outcome.

I think Mark Hales would testify as to the abilities of the legal system to make you potentially pennyless where old cars are concerned.

Just to clarify I have no affiliation to anyone mentioned on this thread just in case that is levelled against me.

Anyone in a democratic society has the right to voice an opinion, just remember you may need to defend that opinion when the time comes.

 

I'm sure you await the case of Ferrari owner vs the internet with baited breath.

 

Not the internet, just the individuals involved, and the people behind the website where the statements were aired in public.

I dont make the rules

 

Despite your supposed non affiliation, good luck with that nonsense.

 

I suggest you check all my posts if you claim I have any connection to anyone involved in this whole debate. I am no legal expert but I am sure someone who is on fchat will confirm or deny my beliefs.

I very much doubt anyone would think someone like me who is tinkering with an old 355 runs in the same pack as owners of $25 million dollar ferrari's and International classic car dealers, racers and restorers lol

 

So you are simply trying to scare off posters that don't happen to share your opinions with threats of legal proceedings that you admit you don't actually understand.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

Not scaring off anyone, just making them aware of the potentials, its up to them to decide if they continue down the road they have taken. What legal experience do you have to discount my understanding on the matter?

 

Again, many thanks for the clarification.

I for one hope the healthy debate and sharing of information on these wonderful old cars continues, threats and tantrums aside.

 

Well said. tongascrew