David Piper restores the Talacrest P4

I understand your incredulous reaction -- I know it sounds like something out of a movie along the lines of "divine intervention," etc.

However, the timing and manner in which this fellow showed up with the green roof is 100% true.

 

(Wreck photo is 0854 not 0844)

Ditto.

The guy who wrote "854 P3" didn't even realize that 0854 was never a P3.

 

Another photo of the same. Rather assymetrical roof it is. Copyright not known.
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Thanks for the better pic. I now do see the damage to the windscreen hoop/frame. However, the roof itself looks to have emerged relatively unscathed. Please bear in mind that the TOP of each door wraps around/curves inward towards the roof edge.

To my eye, it looks as if the left-side DOOR TOP is what sustained the brunt of the damage, rather than the narrow fixed central roof panel.

 

But then again, aren't you the very same guy who erroneously posited that 0844 wears a replica Piper-built body?

 

The Body is a replica 412P body parts of which are formed using molds supplied by David Piper according to your link. The roof is clearly missing original elements which are visible in period photos of 412P roofs. Piper built a number of 412P roofs for a number of people. I suspect this is one of them as they too are missing the same original elements.

 

Rather asymmetrical it is.

 

When looking at the link, you will see several photos of 0844 in bare aluminum. Those portions of the 330 Can Am that could be salvaged (i.e. including the doors) were incorporated into the end result (i.e. which can be seen in the portions which exhibit a "rough" -i.e. non-English Wheel -- finish.

As you're already aware, when the 330 Can Am aluminum bodywork was constructed, the original 330 P3 Berlinetta bodywork was modified (i.e. used as the basis). In contrast, 330 P4 0858 and 0860 received 100% fiberglass bodywork when these two latter cars evolved into 350 Can Am configuration.

I have many 35mm photos shot during the late-1990s So. California-based restoration of 0844 back to 412P configuration which clearly show what parts of the coachwork are original versus which portions were fabricated using the English Wheel method.

 

Here's the point. 0844's 330 Can Am body was made it the day. I saw it race in the day and I saw it in 1998 when Coco drove it up the hill at Goodwood. I would not have cut up that original body and "Re 412P'd it". I would have saved it as the piece of history it was and bought a nice 412P alloy body from Allegretti who's father beat the original one at Drogo and who still has the bucks he used and does very nice work. I'm glad that 0858's Can Am body still exists.

As an aside I think the body you reference was crashed badly.

 

The damage from the Le Mans Classic shunt was fairly moderate.

 

What "original elements" is the green roof missing?

 

Once again, its unfortunate to see history cut apart, at this point could anything be done with the can am body that was cut off to turn this into a replica p4? Wouldn't the can am body on a replica chassis be as original as the replica body on the can am frame?

 

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Hello, wow that looks a lot more than "fairly moderate" with suspension damage, both wheels moved to the rear and front showing frame damage. Not to mention the front and rear clip totaled. Thats "not going to buff out". Ouch!

 

If these cars still have largely their original bodywork, then surely that indicates that they didn't race very much or is it because the endurance races they entered are really about finishing not diving up the inside and making awesome passes?

Most 250LM's, if not all, have been crashed and burnt many times and repaired many times ... why not these Prototype cars? Same technology so same fire risk ... except possible badder fuel tanks (?).

I also find it quite interesting that Maranello Concessionaires (isn't that who raced 0854 originally when blue and red, not Piper?) with a current race car made fibreglass replica panels. Why? ... these cars were just current race cars back then, not something to be loved.
Pete

 

I've seen far, far worse damage done to historic Ferrari competition cars in recent years during the heat of battle

 

Too many such cars were badly damaged in the past years during those stupid races. Not only Ferrari. Fortunately, many others are well restored and preserved by their owners. And I think that the two CanAm racers in question were finally in better hands with Walter Medlin. Not restored, neglected, but original.

 

Exactly what I think.

 

This is a really interesting thread as it opens up so many direct and larger questions.
As an observer, without sufficient funds to play at this level, to the procedings maybe my view has some objectivity ouside of financial stake.

On the Piper lawsuit, someone here said it was ungentlemanly and that is clearly true. In theory older cars are a hobby and a sport. I think its prettyw ell known that things can and do go wrong, so if you lend your car to someone to drive that is a possibility and your risk. I am surprised that there is not documentation prior to the track outing as to who is at risk.

What comes through clearly here both as regards the ferrari and the porche is that to David Piper this is all a business, even though he presents himself as a colelctor hobbyist.

Putting Piper aside, the whole debate here gets on to the slippery slope of provenance.
How much of an orignal car remains, do restorations destry period patina further eroding vlaue. It seems there are two types of "collectors" thise that may use their cars but see them far more in the financial context, and those thata re conniseur collectors who value what the thing is as much as they value what its worth.

If the can am body is what was raced by ferrari way back, then the car as it existed at auction is an irreplacable period piece. Only someone with no true taste or sense of the thing would rip it apart for some $$$ or fake asthetics. Of course the market is populated by many such "collectors" and sadly even value may be greater with the rebody.

Then we have cars that really are only buits, but still have priovenance. How many times do we read about a car that has been retubbed, and has spare bodywork and molds. What then is the original car, the pedals and chassis plate. Yet vaue is attached to these vehicles much like Washingtons axe, because their so called provenance allows entry to
certain events, and the provenance somehow bestows greater value.

What manay of these cars are is toolroom copies with historuic data plates. I say lets end the farce and save the few preserved period pieces by reckognising and accepting new build tool room copies in historic events and races. As a hobbyist the primary joy of these machjnes is seeind and or experiencing them being driven in anger. Why use up the dwindling supply of old stock.

To me the only reason why not is snobbery and an attempt to further escalate the vlaue of period pieces. In this thread we see what happens when this process runs amok. Accept new builds, expand the experience and hobby, preserve the period pieces.

 

I, for one, have no interest in seeing copies run, or shown on a concours field. I am saddened to see many of them turned into multi million dollar pieces of art, but that is what it is.

 

Keep the originals for the concors field and demo runs. If youre going to race or use very vigourously on the road have the option to use the new build. I think many clandestinly do this anyway, and I question how original many originals are, so what are you really looking at with many originals.

 

True, for sure! but then that depends on what is the defination of " fairly moderate" and on what car it relates too. LOL.

 

Please note Piper did not lend his car to anybody. Mark "hired" the car to test and write an article.
Pete

 

The problem with this concept is the new build/replicas depleat other original Ferraris for their components, such as 250GT 2+2's. It's cheaper to buy one of these than to remake every single part.

In the end boxerman, these original cars can never be destroyed. Even if a 250GTO burnt to the ground, for example, it will be rebuilt. Sure it's history now will record: burnt, but it's all about continuous history.

What needs to happen is the organisers of these race meetings need to control the drivers better. Anybody that wants to win the World Drivers Championship in a historic/classic race should be immediately black flagged and sent home! There is NOTHING to win racing any old car, it's all just for fun and racing at 80% looks just as good to the spectators. You do not need to beat the car to death to have a good race. This is the real problem, some drivers and organisers do not get old cars and should leave the scene.
Pete

 

A car that is burnt to the ground is pretty much fully destroyed. What then appears is a new build. You dont have to cut up a 2+2 to do that. In fact what would you possibly cut up to make a real P4. No one cuts up another car to make a real GT40 or Mclaren. Its a function of cost and santioning. Look at pur sang in argentina. Or think of pretty much every spitfire now flying, there is very little old build in them, same with wooden boats. Its all a matter of standards.