David Piper restores the Talacrest P4 | Page 123 | FerrariChat

David Piper restores the Talacrest P4

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by Streetrod, Sep 6, 2012.

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  1. tongascrew

    tongascrew F1 Rookie

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    george burgess
    Oh if only this were true.Unfortunately there is really no one still with us who was a significant player at S.F. in the "old days" It would be interesting to hear what Pierro has to say on the subject but one needs to remember he was never a part of the scene until well after his mother died. The only part of the company today that could have some connection with "the old days" is Classiche. There are a wide variety of comments about Classiche many of which seem to indicate little genuine interest or research in how things were done in "the old days". Compared to how experienced art restorers do their work there seems to be little in common with what goes on at Classiche. Now Classiche should not shoulder the entire responsibility.Many of the owners seem uninterested or knowledgeable of the "old days" which is unfortunate. If there were more like Jim Glickenhaus or Tom Schaughnessy, etc out there things could be quite different. Likewise if the judging placed more emphasis on genuine originality this could also move things in the right direction. tongascrew
     
  2. Vincent Vangool

    Vincent Vangool Formula 3

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    I think the main thing to consider when trying to validate this as a factory P4 is there is no race history with the factory and that the factory did not build this car with the intention to race it.

    I very much respect that Piper had the enthusiasm to build this fire breather many years later when its prime had passed but for me the factory race history is what defines an original P4. And there were only three of those of which one is left.

    I think it will find its place in history and have a very decent value enhanced by Piper's connection, but I don't think anyone will really ever consider it to be a factory Ferrari P4. I don't look at it as an all out recreation as there is very much authentic Ferrari in it, and many parts that weren't built on the factories bill were built using the same craftsmen, It's a car that came about due to a surplus. not an intention. In my opinion Enzo didn't smack this baby on the back and get her to breathe.

    Guessing all this 0900 talk should be moved to the 0900 thread.
     
  3. GBTR6

    GBTR6 Formula Junior

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    I understand. I don't know how Enzo was. i am sure there were things that changed day to day on a whim. I am just saying that a person other than the factory can't put an original car together, permsission or not. Only the factory can do that. I imagine the way that things were done at the factory back in the day may have been fast and loose at times. And worse for competition cars as they were changed so often.

    Perry
     
  4. peterp

    peterp F1 Veteran

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    Quoting an excerpt of solofast's post above because it makes a great point and I would argue that it eliminates any doubt that Ferrari endorsed the construction of the chassis. Solofast points out that you couldn't just walk into Vaccari & Bosi and say "build me a P4 chassis" -- you needed to provide the drawings.

    I would take this a step further. It must have been a very small world back then, so even if somebody happened to have factory drawings, it seems doubtful they would just build a duplicate chassis without first checking with Ferrari to see if the person requesting the job was authorized to use the drawings to build a duplicate. Their relationship with Ferrari must have been very important, so it doesn't seem possible that they would risk harming that relationship by not checking first to make sure the duplication was authorized.

    My "education" on this topic is from reading these threads, so let me know if I'm missing something.
     
  5. johngtc

    johngtc Formula Junior
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    Much of this thread seems to be based on a reflux distillation - the condensation of vapours and the return of this condensate to the system from which it originated!

    Assertions and conjectures have been repeated so often that they are treated as fact, when in reality most posters have no first hand knowledge of the players.

    In over 40 years of reading everything I can about Ferrari, I can't say that I have ever seen Piper claim that his P4 is either genuine or a sanctioned official continuation. Surely, everyone who knows or cares can agree that he had a chassis constructed to the original blueprint and built up the car from spares he had acquired over the years.

    He built the car to race - not to deceive or make a quick buck - and for much of its life it was not worth a lot of money.

    I seem to recollect that when David Clark sold the only genuine P4 (# 0856) to Albert Obrist in 1988, the sum mentioned was appreciably less than today's asking price for a SWB. Things have changed.
     
  6. peterp

    peterp F1 Veteran

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    You have, in a single sentence, eloquently captured the entire essence of the vast majority of the Internet.

    I think few, if any, are suggesting it is real or should be considered real. My personal opinion, as a distinguished distillate, is that whatever the proper term for it is, it isn't "replica".
     
  7. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    It is interesting though that Piper ordered not one but 3 chassis' from Vaccari & Bosi. To me this puts doubt on your second sentence as as far as we know Enzo endorsed only one chassis, #0900.


    johngtc,
    While I agree with you that Piper is more interesting in using his cars, he also is a good businessman and we don't know what his retirement plans are.

    peterp,
    The word replica covers a wide range of in this case vehicles. Most are rubbish but some are very good. Some build 100% replicas of Spitfires (the wonderful plane) and they are perfect, but still replicas ... #0900 IMO is a very, very good replica and was a good use of those extra parts.
    Pete
     
  8. peterp

    peterp F1 Veteran

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    #3058 peterp, Mar 6, 2014
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2014
    While I agree that in that it fits within the technical definition of replica, calling it a "replica" without any clarification of the specifics is misleading at best.

    The word "mammal" covers a wide range of living things, but if I said "a mammal entered the room", when I meant a human, I would be deceiving everyone. Calling a human a mammal is 100% accurate, of course, but humans are so profoundly different from every other mammal that using the mammal label alone, without qualification, creates deception.

    The same could be said of David's car. As a reconstruction of (mostly) correct parts built with some type of cooperation of the factory, it is so far removed from every other replica in the Ferrari world that calling it a replica without qualification creates deception by omission. Does it technically fit within the definition of a replica? Yes. Is calling it a replica without any kind of further qualification correct or appropriate? No. I'm sure all you mammals will agree with this :)
     
  9. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    :)

    One thing though. All these old race cars need clarification. Jim's #0846 is what it is, many 250LM's have burnt to the ground and been rebuilt (heck there is one yellow one that has been comprehensively crashed a few times in recent years) so the continuous history of all these old (not just race cars) is vital, ie. some genuine cars are considerably more original than others, while some have much better race history than others but had a harder life ... your call at what is personally more important.
    Pete
     
  10. PAUL500

    PAUL500 F1 Rookie

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    Ah yes but you are also forgetting that one of those 3 Jim says was actually the original chassis of 0846?
     
  11. Vincent Vangool

    Vincent Vangool Formula 3

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    #3061 Vincent Vangool, Mar 7, 2014
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2014
    Yep.

    As time goes on this will be lost if not documented.

    I feel as these age people will become more interested in preserving what is left.
     
  12. tongascrew

    tongascrew F1 Rookie

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    I would be careful with such a comment. There are many well respected Ferrari "experts" who consider some of the best resto shops do better work than Classiche. At least Classiche does farm out certain jobs to shops they know do the best work. My opinion is that it should be the responsibility of the owner when considering an important restoration project to consult the best sources available before selecting a resto plan.There is nothing wrong with have several shops involved.Depending on certain criteria it may be best for an owner to employ a "well respected independent expert" to advise, design and oversee the project. tongascrew
     
  13. GBTR6

    GBTR6 Formula Junior

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    I meant no disrepect to any resto facility. I imagine there are some that devote so much time and knowledge to certain aspects as to be perhaps better than the factory. We have Motion Products here and I know they do a great job. It certainly pays to get the best to do specific jobs on these cars as most are such limited production, and certainly valuable. Don't get me wrong, I love Ferraris, and respect the work. Unless I win the lottery, I suspect I won't be able to own one. And I am by no means 'anybody' when in this forum. Just an intereted onlooker.

    Perry
     
  14. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    Yes, but this doesn't change the fact that Piper ordered 3 chassis'. He, it appears, never knew that one was based on an original chassis or didn't care ...
    Pete
     
  15. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    #3065 PSk, Mar 11, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Just for fun and yes #0846 has different nose inlets than a puka P4 but the shape is right. Might as well grafted a Simca 100 front on #0858 ... miles away from right. My personal conclusion is that the wooden buck we see photos of was only used for photographing the restoration process purposes, but not actually used :D
    Pete
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  16. Vincent Vangool

    Vincent Vangool Formula 3

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    Does 0858's original P4 nose still exist?

    I know that Napolis has the 0858 tail But I'm wondering if the nose is still with us?

    Any word on the body found in Italy?
     
  17. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

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    It's interesting that a Classic Cars article printed in Jim's 0846 pdf document on page 61 about Chris Amon's retirement in the race at Le Mans 1967 states that the P4 he shared with Nino Vaccarella had a 4.2 litre engine.
     
  18. furoni

    furoni F1 World Champ

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    Crap!! I still can´t belive how it was possible to do such a a bad job after spending so much money!!!Hell, aren´t those guys suposed to be professionals?
     
  19. gt4me

    gt4me F1 Veteran

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    #3069 gt4me, Mar 12, 2014
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2014
    Article about retromobile in this months Classic cars quotes Meiners as saying the car will have an original P4 body fitted this year?





    Edited for spelling.
     
  20. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    It is. It's hanging on a wall. There is also a body that has been offered for sale as 412P 0850's original body. Not sure if it is and it's not P4. It will be interesting to see the "original" P4 body that they're going to fit to 350 Can Am 0858 and learn where they found it.
     
  21. Sig. Roma

    Sig. Roma Formula 3
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    I haven't been through Maranello recently, but a number of years ago, one of the shops by the museum had a nose section of a P3, 4, 412 etc hanging on the wall. Just wondered if that is the one.

    Dom
     
  22. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    No. There are a lot of them hanging on walls in the area but the only one I'm aware of in that area that may be real is 0850's 412P body.
     
  23. Sig. Roma

    Sig. Roma Formula 3
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  24. Ferrari 360 CS

    Ferrari 360 CS F1 Veteran

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    The point being what exactly? Or are you trying to say currently 0858 has the correct engine for a P4, forget word play, is that what you are trying to say?
     
  25. intrepidcva11

    intrepidcva11 F1 Rookie
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    .......and tell us, Jacques, what exactly was the point of your above post? To share information about P4's or....... what were you trying to say, exactly? Steve's post was information relating to P4's.
     

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