David Piper restores the Talacrest P4

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by Streetrod, Sep 6, 2012.

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  1. BMWairhead

    BMWairhead Formula Junior

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    I don't believe Ferrari said "destroyed" ...but even Jim agrees that they said it was scrapped and written off and should not have been resurrected. Nonetheless, he pushes forward that it's something other than written off... it's part of his historical timeline...

    This really doesn't belong in this thread (although they will never be completely separated).
     
  2. Vincent Vangool

    Vincent Vangool Formula 3

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    No we have a car that is no longer a P4 but a 350 Can Am. Yes it is built on the remains of a frame that was once a P4 but that car ceased to exist officially, just as 0846 did, even if the remains were found, until Ferrari says it is 0846 it isn't. It would just be the remains. The car that sits in front of us today is officially a 350 Can Am. Not a P4.
     
  3. Vincent Vangool

    Vincent Vangool Formula 3

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    Scrapped, destroyed, whatever the wording. Even if the frame was verified to be found, the argument was it would not officially be 0846. At the end of the day Ferrari determines what the car is as it sits today.

    Do you feel Ferrari would Classiche this as P4 0858 as it sits today?
     
  4. BMWairhead

    BMWairhead Formula Junior

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    That actually cuts straight to the point...JG has been very vocal about this car since he didn't buy it at auction... playing it off as not being able to be red booked... claiming that Ferrari wouldn't recognize it for anything other than what it is.

    The double standard is that his car might not be red booked, either...but, that's a hazy view.

    Two separate cars that don't achieve a certain standard are not automatically equal.

    0858 still has lineage.
     
  5. Vincent Vangool

    Vincent Vangool Formula 3

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    Yes and that lineage is that the the car was officially changed from P4 to 350 Can Am and that lineage exists today. Changing a body does not erase that.

    The difference is JG billed the car as what he thought it was, a bitsa built up from the believed remains of 0846. And that the car would never officially be 0846 whereas Talacrest is trying to pass this car off as the original P4, which it is not. It is a 350 Can Am with a P4 body.
     
  6. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    #3131 miurasv, Feb 2, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2018
    How Ferrari or anyone view the car, whether as a P4 or as a Can Am, it was and still is a real Ferrari with chassis number 0858. The difference with JG's Piper 0003 is that it never was a Ferrari with chassis number 0846, or even a real Ferrari, and never will be. It always was, and as long as it exists, it will always be Piper's 0003.
     
  7. Vincent Vangool

    Vincent Vangool Formula 3

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    Did anyone dispute

    We are talking about George Washington's axe... not grinding one.
     
  8. peterp

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    #3133 peterp, Feb 2, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2018
    I don't think there is even the slightest cloud over this car. There is only one 0858 and that is undisputedly this car, which has a clear and unambiguous history. The lineage of serial number is all that matters. Is this the car the 0858 that was one of the original P4's? Yes, it is unambiguously, no other car can make that claim. Is it in the same form as it was as a P4? No, but Ferrari made those changes to CanAm specs. To try to make the claim that isn't the same car that was the original P4 is lunacy because there could be no other car to make that claim and this one still exists. It's the same car, now in a different form. Model-wise, it is a "former P4, 350 CanAm, that currently wheres a P4 body". If it was never a P4, then that would be weird and inappropriate, since it was a P4, it's the owners prerogative to use that body for now. IIRC, they saved the original CanAm body, so who cares that they prefer to use the P4 body at this point in time?

    I read this whole thread a long time ago and am going by memory, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong with any of the above, but I don't see how anyone could dispute that this was the original P4 even though it is in a different form today.
     
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  9. readplays

    readplays Formula 3

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    Guys, guys, guys. Come on. There's nothing to be gained by re-legislating 0858. Parties on both sides are just reiterating their old talking points.
    AND in the name of all that is holy, you all know that any discussion pertaining to JG car is only allowed in its own thread- the one named 'the one and only thread' because it's the one and only thread on this site where discussion of that car is allowed.
    Just because El Wayne isn't here to hammer everyone, let's not do members a disservice by either; reposting the same old party lines with no advancement, or by trying to make comparisons to a car that's only allowed to be discussed in its own thread.
    Thank You.
     
  10. Vincent Vangool

    Vincent Vangool Formula 3

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    No on is disputing that the chassis was once 0858 P4. But the facts remain that just the same as 0846 was written off and therefore no longer exists in the eyes of Ferrari the same is true here. 0858 P4 no longer officialy exists as it became 0858 350 Can Am and remains 0858 350 Can Am to this day no matter what body was placed on it.

    I would not agree that there is known continuity of all the parts from 0858 P4 making it into 0858 Can Am though.

    But I do agree. This has all been said before.
     
  11. PAUL500

    PAUL500 Formula 3

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    Yet again hollow claims from you that you never ever back up with facts. I have never made any claims about what Ferrari has said or not said, as clearly just like you, I do not have access to them.

    Whoever Vincent and Ginge really are, they will always argue that black is white and apply double standards until the cows come home, quite comical really as everyone bar them can see it.
     
  12. ginge82

    ginge82 Formula 3

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    Was this car 'originally a P4' or is an 'original P4'?

    The difference is huge and the answer is a simple one, despite the usual suspects attempts to dodge the reality of the question.
     
  13. ginge82

    ginge82 Formula 3

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    According to Ferrari 0846 no longer exists. Also according to Ferrari nor does 0858 as a P4, nor will it ever.

    Simple.
     
  14. ginge82

    ginge82 Formula 3

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    ...and it isn't helped by dealers trying to re-write history and pretend things are something that they are NOT for $$$.

    It is vital that enthusiasts call out such nonsense.
     
  15. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    See what JG has to say from around 2.15. That car is not "original" in any sense whatsoever of the word. What have you to say about JG's nonsense here then, Ginge???


     
  16. Vincent Vangool

    Vincent Vangool Formula 3

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    Paul 500 in an earlier post you wanted a list to be made on a piece of A4 paper that stated what was original to 0858 versus what was not original and that much more of the elements still exist today, than do not exist, and that is what makes the difference.

    First off, I don't think making that list is possible due to you have no idea what parts made the transition from 0858 P4 to 0858 Can Am. Parts were swapped like musical chairs from the time the car was first built as a P4 and then campaigned as a P4. Parts were again probably swapped between the various cars during the transformation into 350 Can Ams and also while campaigning them as Can Ams. Then during Medlin's ownership I think it is fair to say that more parts were swapped and possibly manufactured to keep the car going. So to say that that list can be compiled sounds like absolute rubbish to me. I don't think one can say that (without getting into the whole chassis discussion) that any more "original" parts exist in 0858 then they do in 0846 with any sort of real certainty.

    Now we know that Piper put a Recreation Body on 0858 and back then some thought that turned it into a P4. Since then I believe the car has been re-done with proper pieces made by Ferrari Back in the day and some believe that even further solidifies that the car is indeed now a P4.

    With that in mind, the question I have is TomGT mentions that this scrutiny of what is left of the original car should also be applied to 0854 and that due to I believe, Pipers fiberglass body burning, the car was later also fitted with an original body from back in the day. Due to these events in the cars lineage do you feel that this P3 can still be considered to be original?
     
  17. tomgt

    tomgt F1 Veteran
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    0854 is far from original.
    It was like 0844, 0858 and 0860 a can am.
    Many tubes were changed.
    We do not know what Piper did in the six months before the new car returned to the track as a can am. For sure F would have scrapped it.

    Is 0844 classiche certified as a 412P?
     
  18. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    1. Your statement above is absolute rubbish!!!
    2. It makes me sick to my stomach that people like you refer to JG's Piper replica as "0846". There should be a ban or referring to it as such.
     
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  19. PAUL500

    PAUL500 Formula 3

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    No one, anywhere, ever can state that the car is not Ferrari, chassis number 0858, that is the huge difference.

    Again, no one, anywhere can dispute that chassis 0858 started its racing career as a genuine, Ferrari P4 race car.
     
  20. peterp

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    All of that swapping and all of those changes, up to Medlin, were done by the factory racing team (and then by Paul Hawkins who had racing success with it) -- they are a critical part of its history. Having it retain those mods and the evolution at the chassis and engine level "as raced" is the very definition of 0858 being original "as raced". Even if you had all the original P4 parts sitting in a closet from the day it rolled out of the factory, the worst thing you could possibly do from a historical standpoint would to strip off all of the factory mods and evolution from racing and erase all that by putting the original P4 pieces back.

    It is a former P4, 350 CanAm, with a crystal clear history that wears a P4 body today. Historically, it would be best if it still retained its CanAm body as raced, but since that body is preserved, who cares that it happens to wear a P4 body now? What you are using as the standard for it to be called "original", or even a valid Ferrari, requires erasing all of its racing history. The most important thing about the car for history is the chassis and engine and all the bits underneath -- bodies come and go -- it's better that the underlying guts are more CanAm than P4 and they still have the original CanAm body anyway. The criteria you are trying to use to validate this car is wrong. If somebody is trying to claim that is the original P4 as raced, that's wrong, but nobody is claiming that. They are only claiming that it is the current version of the original P4 that raced at LeMans (which is unambiguously true).
     
  21. Vincent Vangool

    Vincent Vangool Formula 3

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    #3146 Vincent Vangool, Feb 3, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2018
    Not my problem. Just as you can, I also too can refer to JG's car any which way I want. Good luck on getting that ban.
     
  22. Vincent Vangool

    Vincent Vangool Formula 3

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    Yes. That is true. But what one can do is be true to its history. Throwing a P4 body on it does not change that history. 0858 as a P4 no longer exists. 0858 was changed from a P4 to a 350 Can Am and that is what the car is today.

    Collins or even the present owner billing the car as 0858 P4 is not being truthful as to what the car actually is.
     
  23. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    #3148 miurasv, Feb 3, 2018
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    You and Ginge take issue with JC replying to a question and saying 0858 is original in the It's a real Ferrari sense and yet you have no problem with Glickenhaus stating, without being questioned or prompted, that his proven replica is "original" and still to this day is not being truthful and perpetuates the bull.... that it's 0846 despite all the evidence which proves otherwise.
     
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  24. Vincent Vangool

    Vincent Vangool Formula 3

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    Good point Pete. So then the changes by Piper and Talacrest would not be considered as such as they no longer "retain those mods and the evolution at the chassis and engine level "as raced" is the very definition of 0858 being original "as raced" ........as they literally did this... "the worst thing you could possibly do from a historical standpoint would to strip off all of the factory mods and evolution from racing and erase all that by putting the original P4 pieces back."

    Thanks for saving me some typing and making my point.

    What Piper and Collins did was total sacrilege to 0858's true history. They literally butchered the cars actual living history in a quest for profit. IMO it was a very disgusting act and one that should be looked down upon. And I feel the same goes for anyone that continues to fake 0858 as being the P4 it originally was. I had a teacher once that had worked a summer as a painter and he had a saying "If you paint over someone else's drip, it becomes your drip." and this drip that keeps getting painted over is a violation of preserving actual living Ferrari History in attempting to create a history that to put it frankly, is history.

    The most important thing for the cars history is that it follows the cars actual history when the car was actually in use for its intended use. And that history is clear. The car was left in history as a 350 Can Am and the P4 that it once was ceased to exist.

    It is more than changing a body. The history of the car is that Ferrari changed its designation to 350 Can Am. No one has changed that back. It was entered in races as a 350 Can Am. Paper work was filled out as such. The car was never entered as a 330 P4 as that car ceased to exist after the transformation and no longer does. The history of this car is that it finished it's intended use life as a 350 Can Am and that history can not be changed just cause Piper and Collins want to make a buck.
     
  25. tomgt

    tomgt F1 Veteran
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    Same for many LMs, GTOs, TRs, Ps. Modified.
    4491GT can never be a GTO again
    Nor 0808, 0812, 5899 etc etc. List is too long.
    Or because F is issuing a certificate is becomes “real/original” again?
     

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