David Piper restores the Talacrest P4

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by Streetrod, Sep 6, 2012.

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  1. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

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    Lots of prattling on about what constitutes a real Ferrari and its really easy, whatever Ferrari says constitutes one, just like Cartier can tell you what is a Cartier watch or the Savoy Hotel can tell you what the Savoy Hotel is. Nobody else decides that. Where I have a major issue is that two of the posters on here have blasted Ferrari for their restorations of 250LM #5899 and 6045 when it is Ferrari's right to do so and indeed the whole point of a red book is to state it is to original specification NOT to state that it is original (thats the condensed version). In the case of #0846, Ferrari Classiche cannot now restore it because they have stated it was written off/ scrapped whatever BUT they would be happy to take #0858 and restore it as a P4 with all new Classiche parts. That would be sad because the car was not changed all that much to become a 350 Can Am and could easily be converted back, keeping it mainly original whereas Classiche are likely to want to replace large swathes to make it perfect.

    As far as Vincents comments about the chassis being radically changed in the 350 Can Am rebuild back in '67, if more than 50% needed to change, Ferrari would simply have built a new spec chassis since it would have been cheaper.......
     
  2. Bryanp

    Bryanp F1 Rookie

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    I know very little about this era of Ferraris - the 4-cylinder Ferraris are my sweet spot - but I will never agree w/ the premise that just because Ferrari SpA says something is true, that it actually is true. They have demonstrated a penchant for revisionist history.
     
  3. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

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    This is simplifying nonsense. Just the Red Book is period genuine. ‘5899’ and ‘6045’ are certified works replicas and no period products. The Red Books mention wrong, falsified production dates and the cars were not made from Scaglietti (and ‘5899’ chassis’ not even from Ferrari or a licensed maker). This is not the way history works and forging history is as old as historiography itself. Those cars can’t be turned with any certificates to genuine period products and will remain forever replicas as will 0003 unseen of what Ferrari will ever say. And 0858 can't be correctly restored to a P4 from nobody because it became in period a 350 Can Am in its last works configuration.
     
  4. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

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    I totally respect your opinion and I know where you are coming from, BUT, it is Ferrari's right to be the first and last word on what they declare something is, as it is our right to believe (or not) and I note again that they are not the arbiter of whether a car is original (or even what that means) and thus the whole palaver around whether how they deal with cars that were modified in period. Several cars stick out, the Breadvan, which technically would require Ferrari to return it to a SEFAC/61 SWB thus the white book, the Violati collection 275/330P that was not the original #0818 since that existed elsewhere and the number of cars that had Ferrari OEM engines that weren't matching numbers or type that Classiche demanded entirely new engines be built and certified. All of those examples prove that Classiche is not perfect but what else is there, Marcel is a wizard with history and if he states its original, one should listen BUT he isn't Ferrari and the number of collectors rushing to get cars red booked shows there is demand for the official imprimatur. What would concern me in regards to #0858 is that if you went to Ferrari with enough cash and connections, Classiche would restore it to original spec by removing period alterations and replacing them with brand new parts and that is likely to be much more destructive than simply removing and fitting all new bodywork. In short, I don't always like their methods and take everything they say with a pinch of salt but I can't see how anyone else can be a provider of a blanket certification process.......

    And so they have previously said they wouldn't classiche it as a P4 to Jim, if you have enough cash and connections and Ferrari classiche will do all sorts as per Violatti's #0818, the two 250LM you refer too or even the Breadvan. They would simply white book it...... Or create a whole new dimension of book, after all they did so when they changed the Red book only policy to Red and White book, the obvious colour would be Green. Just my 2 cents.
     
  5. ginge82

    ginge82 Formula 3

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    And once again, no one can dispute that Ferrari converted the car to a Can-Am. No one, anywhere can suggest that it retained many of its P4 major components either. FACT.

    Once Piper was finished cutting up the tubes during his 'restoration' no one can state with a straight face that it has most of its original chassis left either.

    'Original P4'? Lol. Maybe sections of the chassis remain from its days as a P4, nothing else.
     
  6. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

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    You claim that Ferrari changed most, much, some, all (or any other term) of the chassis to alter the 330P4 into the 350 Can Am, please tell us exactly what % of the chassis you claim was altered. Just roughly will do, 10, 20, 80, go on. Will be fun.
     
  7. PAUL500

    PAUL500 Formula 3

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    #3157 PAUL500, Feb 5, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2018
    Well I think we can all say that the % of 0858s P4 chassis that remains within it is greater than that of Jims 0848 and Ginge is adamant that his car is a P4 so by association he confirms that 0858 is the same. He cannot have it both ways to suit his narrative.

    Furthermore the current JG story is that 0848 went on to have another life within Ferrari before being scrapped, so it stopped being a P4 at that point officially as well if you take the Ginge stance regarding reverting back to an earlier spec as 0858 has done.

    The elements of the chassis what would have remained when it was converted to a Can Am had to be extensive, as in everything that attaches the suspension, the steering, the engine, the gearbox, the cockpit etc etc etc, they just chopped out the spare wheel carrier and a few other non structural bits and bobs, as you can see in the Piper re conversion Piper had to do very little to attach a P4 body back onto the car. Plus the Can Am body can obviously easily be refixed.

    The Can Am conversion for a cheap quick fix of a then obsolete car to give it a bit more life, which then did not achieve any real results anyway, had Ferrari wanted a serious challenger they would have produced a new bespoke chassis and transferred any useful bits from 0858 into it. That new chassis would then have also had a new chassis number assigned.
     
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  8. PAUL500

    PAUL500 Formula 3

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    Damn 10 min edit window, of course I meant 0846 not 0848
     
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  9. peterp

    peterp F1 Veteran
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    You can't have it both ways. Your entire assertion is that the chassis and engine and other bits are 350 CanAm, which precludes it from being considered a "P4 spec" car. That would mean that they preserved the CanAm chassis and engine as raced. Given that the original body has been preserved, nothing has been lost with regard to its history except that it now wears a different body. Your entire argument requires that the "as raced" spec was preserved, with the exception of the body, otherwise you don't have a point.

    If you are now going to argue that the CanAm engine and chassis mods were rolled back to P4 spec, then you don't have an argument to say that it isn't in P4 spec.

    I strongly suspect that the chassis and engine modifications that have been alleged to be so radical in the conversion from P4 to 350 are wildly exagerated. Both P4 and the CanAm have the exact same wheelbase, have the exact same front and rear track, they have the exact same suspension type front and rear. Engine-wise, they have the exact same stroke, the same fuel system, the same 3 valves and 2 spark plugs per cylinder, the exact same compression ratios, and nearly identical hp per liter.

    Looking at the specs, it looks like the 350 CanAm engine was simply the P4 engine, bored from 77mm to 79mm, which I suspect was the largest they could safely bore the P4 block and that limitation was why they were underpowered versus the competition in CanAm. Based upon the specs, it also seem very likely that the CanAm chassis was the exact same P4 chassis with a few welds tacked on or modified to fit the CanAm body.

    P4 Chassis:
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    CanAm Chassis:
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    P4 Engine
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    CanAm Engine:
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    Sources:
    http://auto.ferrari.com/en_US/sports-cars-models/past-models/330-p4/
    http://auto.ferrari.com/en_US/sports-cars-models/past-models/350-can-am/
     
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  10. tomgt

    tomgt F1 Veteran
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    ~90% of tubes are 0858 P4 whereas Pipers P4 “0003” has 0%
     
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  11. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    #3161 miurasv, Feb 6, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2018
    Ing. Mauro Forghieri has today confirmed that the Can Am engine was originally a P4 engine. See my email exchange with him below:


    To: Ing. Mauro Forghieri.

    From: Steven Robertson.

    27th January, 2018.

    Dear Ing. Forghieri,

    Re: Tipo 247 350 4.2 litre Can Am Engine.

    May I ask if you remember if the tipo 247 4.2 litre 350 Can Am engines were new engines or if they were actually the tipo 237 4.0 litre engines that were previously used in the 330 P4 cars and then bored out to 4.2 litres for use as a Can Am car?

    Thank you for your attention, Ing Forghieri and I look forward very much to your reply.

    With the utmost respect,

    Kindest regards,

    Steven Robertson.


    Ing. Forghieri's reply which I received from him today (06.02.18) is below:

    "Dear Mr Robertson
    Re: ENGINE.
    I do not find documents but believing
    To your and my memory your storic
    Statement is correct.The Can Am
    Engine was original Engine for 330
    P4 car.
    Regards
    Forghieri"



    I also have it in writng from Ferrari Classiche, which I posted here in 2013 that the gearbox/transaxle 603 R Number 8 currently in 0858 is the very one used when the car was a P4.
     
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  12. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

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    Steve
    I am guessing you won't change any minds but great post
     
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  13. ginge82

    ginge82 Formula 3

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    #3163 ginge82, Feb 9, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
    At auction Ferrari declined the opportunity to confirm that the engine in the CanAM is the same engine from its days as a P4.

    So again, what remains of this car from its days as a genuine, original P4? Some of the chassis.

    What a museum piece.
     
  14. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    That does not mean it is not the same engine as used in the P4. To who exactly did they decline the opportunity?
     
  15. ginge82

    ginge82 Formula 3

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    Any serious money in the room that day would have asked the same question and received the same answer.

    They decline the opportunity to confirm that the engine in the Can Am car being auctioned was original to that car during its life as a genuine, original P4.
     
  16. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    You have not answered the question. To who did they decline the opportunity to confirm?
     
  17. PAUL500

    PAUL500 Formula 3

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    and who else was present of note to corroborate such a claim? and have they confirmed such directly?
     
  18. peterp

    peterp F1 Veteran
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    *************'s (<- Super Cars Net) data on the P4 and 350 CanAm indicate both use "Type 237" engine (just bored out to 73mm in the case of the CanAm). I don't know what sources ************* uses, but that seems to jive with Ferrari's own spec sheets previously posted indicating the only specification difference was and increase in bore from 71 to 73.

    https://www.*************/blog/1967-ferrari-330-p4-2/
    https://www.*************/blog/1967-ferrari-350-can/

    There is a brief overview of the conversion from P4 to CanAm in the article below that states that the changes were limited to the body and the mechanicals were largely unaltered. I don't know the source of their data, and am a bit leery of posting something from "how stuff works" about a vintage racing Ferrari, but the comments seem pretty specific and their explanation also seems to jive with Ferrari's own spec sheets posted previously showing the chassis and engine to be identically spec'ed (except for bore size). There are, of course, large differences in the body measurements in the Ferrari stats posted previously as you would expect, but none in chassis dimensions.

    https://auto.howstuffworks.com/ferrari-350-can-am.htm

     
  19. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    #3169 miurasv, Feb 10, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2018
    FACT? The above is FICTION. You are absolutely wrong and that is the FACT.

    To reconfigure 0858 as P4 tubes did not need to be cut up at all. Tubes were actually added to it that had been removed by Ferrari such as the roll over hoop behind the cockpit, windscreen surround and some tubing at the back that supported the spare tyre and luggage box area of the bodywork which was not required for a Can Am car and all easy to restore as original. And yes anyone can state with conviction that it has most (probably 90+%) of its original chassis. Just look at the pictures of 0858’s chassis sections and suspension pick ups in the 0846 thread which absolutely prove they are P4, the same as P4 0856.

    John Collins’ post on Instagram that you reignited this thread about actually stated that the car was getting its finishing touches. What were the finishing touches he was referring to, Ginge? I’ll tell you: they were the finishing touches to the car being reconfigured from Can Am to P4 so he was hardly trying to pass the car off as “original P4 as it was in 1967” as you assert. He was always transparent about the whole thing.

    Wrong yet again.

    Again, if Ferrari declined the opportunity to confirm, that did not mean the engine was not the one when a P4. BUT, we now have confirmation from Forghieri, the P4 head designer, that Can Am engines were originally P4 engines.

    Over 90% of the chassis, the suspension (which was only set up differently for Can Am), the engine as confirmed by Forghieri in writing, the gearbox/transaxle as confirmed by Ferrari Classiche in writing, the central section of the bodywork which includes the aluminium sills and area above and surrounding the original polyester doors and bodywork between windscreen and front clam. So, Ginge much of the car is actually “original P4.” And I do mean that in the “as it was in 1967” sense.

    Also, let’s not forget that the Cigala and Bertinetti made front and rear Can Am body sections and all Can Am parts were sold with the car.
     
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  20. tomgt

    tomgt F1 Veteran
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    The least original 412/p4 is 0854 that is FACT.
    Maybe 0858 will be certified by F in the future.
     
  21. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

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    Cerified as what?
     
  22. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

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    Of course 0858 is no simple task to qualify. It has an original, existing Ferrari chassis number and is made of ‘car original’ period components. But it has as well a replica body and essential non Ferrari and non period P4 re-conversion work. Different story for sure to 0846, because DP 0003 has no Ferrari chassis number, no ‘car original’ components and the frame is a pure Piper and no Ferrari product.

    But is the re-conversion’s (unclear) percentage of genuine 0858 parts that important? Didn’t 0858 stopped anyhow in 1967 to be a P4 when the works converted it to a 350 CanAm spider? Didn’t 0858 became with the works conversion a different car (with 13%/92kgs less weight)? Yes, it was a P4 before but the works as the only holder of the product rights clearly decided in 1967 that 0848 should stop its P4 existence and should become a 350 CanAm spider, an essentially different car. This is fact.

    History happens irreversibly in period and cannot be changed 43 years later according to the market’s or the owner’s taste and feelings. Such a car is not Lego that can be manipulated back and forth as you cannot turn a Michelangelo sculpture or a Picasso in a former configuration. Only relevant for originality is the state, how the product was finally intended and finished from its creators in period and any certification of the car as an original Ferrari period product would be historically wrong. The car is today an original Piper P4 made in 2011 from original components of the late 0848 works Ferrari 350 CanAm spider, which is no more.
     
  23. tomgt

    tomgt F1 Veteran
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    0848 = 0858 :)
     
  24. peterp

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    #3174 peterp, Feb 11, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2018
    This part of your statement I agree with. The rest of your post I have a difficult time believing you are serious.

    Every indication is that there were essentially no changes to the chassis or engine besides boring the P4 engine 200 CC's to make it a CanAm car. The changes were only to the body and wheels and tires. So the car, as it sits today, is essentially as it was as a P4 -- no major changes were required to the engine/chassis to make it CanAm -- and therefore nothing was required structurally to put it back except what was needed to attach the body. If you have evidence there there were major mechanical changes in the conversion to/from CanAm, post them up, but there seem to be no signs of that.

    Should Ferrari certify it as a P4? I would say definitely not, I assume that Ferrari considers it a 350 CanAm that now has a recreated P4 body. If the preserved CanAm body was put back, I expect Ferrari would certify it as such. For you to take that circumstance, and try to disqualify the car as a Ferrari by labeling it a "Piper P4" is a stretch of epic proportions. There is no validation of "0858 as a P4", there is only validation of 0858 as a car, and its status is unambiguously that it is an original CanAm with original body preserved in storage and a recreated P4 body currently attached.

    The mechanical conversion between the P4 and CanAm (beyond the body) have been overblown to create a "Humpty Dumpty" illusion to discredit this car when really the differences appear to be minimal. The car as it sits today is mechanically a P4 with a recreated body. Pointing out flaws in the P4 body is fair. Saying the car is not officially a P4 is fair. Saying that this car is not a Ferrari is a wild stretch. Saying this car is mechanically corrupted because of the P4/CanAm/P4 conversion is a wild stretch (except for the body, but since the original CanAm body is preserved, even that point is moot). The comparison to a Michelangelo sculpture does not apply either -- sculptures are different than cars. Sculptures don't change because they are ornamental and have no utility. Cars change a lot throughout their life because they are used for a purpose. Over decades, all cars have been through a lot -- especially races cars. There are a ton of certified cars that were modified heavily, destroyed heavily, that had American engines at one point that were brought back and certified, as well they should be (in most cases).

    From a certification standpoint, 0858 is a 350 CanAm with a recreated P4 body currently attached (and original body preserved). It is nothing more or less than that from a certification perspective. From a real world perspective, save for flaws in the recreated P4 body, it is P4 in spirit because the mechanical distinctions from CanAm were trivial unless somebody has evidence to the contrary.
     
  25. tomgt

    tomgt F1 Veteran
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    0860 can not be certified as a P4 either?
    350 can am with a in period P4 replica body (or NOS...???)

    So we have ONE P4 left: 0856
     

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